10-31-2010, 04:47 AM
Quote:Matthew wrote:
The Roman legion WAS a very efficient and highly organized killing machine! If you expect us to believe that the Romans simply dressed all these guys up in metal clothes and had them march about with oversized cutlery to fulfill some cosmological imperative…you're going to have to come up with REALLY good proof.
Sorry about the delay in posting, but as the ancients say, I've been hard pressed. Firstly I am not asking anyone to believe anything. I am sharing what my research has revealed and that is the Roman military organisation is replicating their cosmos system, based on revolutions of planets and their degrees, in relation to moving around the Earth, which they believed remained motionless. I am leaving it for the book to prove what I am outlining. My posting are nothing more than updates of my progress. When I gave Phil Sidnell my email address I received many responses from people on this forum so I decided to make one posting so as to avoid making many individual posts. And I felt obligated to reply. To me, internet forums are light hearted discussions, and for me to post proof will require posting the whole book. If I did so what point in publishing? I sometimes get excited about what I am finding, and share it as an overview. Seriously, I am not asking anyone to believe anything; or even buy the book. I am just stating my latest finds, interlaced I understand with small and very general (but original) snippets of evidence.
Quote:Matthew wrote:
You can tie troop numbers or unit sizes to all sorts of other things, but it does NOT mean that those troop numbers were fixed BECAUSE of those other things UNLESS an ancient author tells us so.
I refer to Geminos’ Introduction to the Phenomena. The whole book is explosive, especially the section “Concerning the Zones on Earth,” Chapter XV 1-4, followed by Chapter XVI 6-8, Dimensions of the Terrestrial Zones.” Following this is Chapter XVI 10-12, “Division of the Celestial Sphere.” The whole Roman tribal system is based on the information in these chapters given by Geminos. However, if the reader has no grasp of ancient mathematical methodology and astronomy, then the information remains meaningless. You have the ingredients, now you have to find out how the Romans used it. My research time and again kept showing that the Romans increased the tribes after 241 BC by 84000 men (2400 men per tribe). However, until I read Geminos I had no idea why this number, then found it relates to the Earth’s diameter of 84,000 stades, which coincidently is close to Dionysius’ figure of 84,700 men for the census of Servius Tullius. But I wouldn’t read too much into that. Every time the zodiac covered this distance, the tribes increase, but it takes centuries to happen. One modern astronomer predicated the ancients were allowing 30 degrees of movement for the upper heaven every 2000 years. In regard to Roman mathematical ratios, information is also contained in Ptolemy’s works:
“The explanation of opposition is immediately obvious, because it causes the two signs to meet on one straight line. But if we take the two fractions and the two super-particulars 3/2 and 4/3 most important in music, and if the fractions one half and one third be applied to opposition, composed of two right angles, the half makes the quartile and the third the sextiles and trine (1/2 of 180 = 90 quarile and 1/3 of 180 = 60 sextile. Of the super-particulars, if the sesquialter and the sesquitertian be applied to the quartiels interval of one right angle, which lies between them, the sesquialter makes the ratio of the quartile to the sextiles and the sesquitertian that of the trine to quartile (3/2 = 90/60 and 4/3 = 120/90.”
Ptolemy’s 120/90 ratio is found in the two systems relating to the Earth being divided into three parts of 120 degrees, and the second system of dividing the Earth into four parts of 90 degrees. A century of 100 men is broken into two parts 60 men plus 40 men, which produces the ratio 3/2. What we basically have is two mathematical systems in play.
Quote:Matthew wrote:
Other modern writers have compared legions to later historical and modern military units, and have found that the sizes of legions, cohorts, and centuries are very practical and workable for administration and for command and control in combat.
Now according to the ancient astronomers, the zodiac is made up of 12 signs each of 30 degrees, therefore, giving a zodiac circle of 360 degrees. My research shows a cohort of 480 men simply represents 480 degrees and when divided by 30 degrees per zodiac sign = 16 zodiac signs. This means 480 degrees represents one and a third zodiac cycles (4 parts Earth =360 degrees, one part diameter = 120 degrees). When the 480 man cohort is introduced is given by Virgil (Eclogue 4: The Golden Age) as occurring during the consulship of Pollio in 40 BC. My research positions 480 degrees as relating to the position of Saturn, which is exactly what Virgil claims, the return of Saturn during the reign of Augustus. During this time, Virgil makes mention of Lucina which is the goddess of birth. I’ve learnt that when Lucina is mentioned in the primary sources it is symbolic of a reform being undertaken, and Virgil is right on the money. Other interesting aspects of the zodiac is each 30 degree sector is subdivided into 10 degree sectors called decani, and each decanus is considered master of his own 10 degree sector. Each 10 degree sector was in turn subdivided into smaller sectors ruled by subdecani. A system of smaller subdivisions covering fractions of a degree was called myriogenesis, which can number up to 216,000. There is also mentioned in passing, of the numeri system, but I cannot find anything more on it.
Quote:Matthew wrote:
Organizing a military unit in strict accordance with astronomical observation seems like an invitation to disaster!
How is this so? Can you elaborate? The Roman system is not based on observation on a weekly or monthly basis; it is permanently modelled on the cosmos system. Although the ancients calculate the upper heavens as moving, it is a theoretical system, and does not correspond to the observation of the planets or fixed stars from Earth. The mathematical system informs the Romans which part of the upper heavens rules them and for how long, similar in concept to Cassius Dio’s description of the gods governing the day. After a number of solar years that correspond with the circumference and diameter of the Earth, coupled divisible by the 60 parts of the Meridian circle, the Romans know which god now rules over them, and because the maths related to a new god greater in degrees than the last one, they increase the tribes in accordance. In this manner, a Roman priest knows what the size of the tribes will be centuries in advance. The system is not concerned with the lunar calendar, with differing days for each month, but the system is aligned with the solar calendar. However, regardless of whether they get the solar year wrong and allow 390 days, 255 days, or 365 days a year, it is the number of years the Roman believe it to be that tells them what position within the universe they are at. What I am saying is I am not randomly picking out degrees in the cosmos system to make the system work, far from it, and it remains faithful to Geminos, Cleomedes, Hipparchos, Pliny and many many others.
There’s a reference in the Suida, given in Greek, of which I don’t have the correct font, that the Athenians organised the tribes of Solon on the months, four seasons and year. Plato recommends mathematical astronomy for his ideal state. Plato even allocates numbers to the planets (1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 9 and 27).
And how do you shrug off Boethius? In his De Institutione Arithmetica, Boethius, compares the arithmetical proportion to the state, which is ruled by a few (oligarchy) because “the greater ratio is with the smaller numbers.” Boethius writes that “a state of the very best is a musical proportion.” Boethius lists five classes of inequality; the first class is called “multiple;” the second class the superparticular ratio, consisting of either the “sesquialter” or the “sesquitertian” ratio. The third class contains two parts the “superbipartient” and the “supertripartient” ratio. The fourth class contains the “duple-sesquialter” or “duple-sesquitertian” ratio, the fifth class is termed the “multiple superpartient” and contains the “duple-superbipartient” and the “triple-superbipartient” ratios.
Coincidently, the Servian constitution has five classes, and Boethius’ reference to a state being ruled by a few because the greater ratio is with the smaller number, somehow coincidently relates to the explanation given by Dionysius and Livy that in the voting system on the century assembly, the greater ratio of Class I, being smaller in number dominate the others, being greater in number (but not in the voting ratio). Maybe this is again, just mathematical coincidence. How do we know? Has anyone explored the possibility?
Quote:Matthew wrote:
Obviously the Romans were very mindful of astronomy and astrology, and took things like omens very seriously indeed. But without more proof, your conclusions are just striking us as a HUGE leap in logic.
I’ll take this statement to reiterate my position. I am only posting to give updates on my progress and where the road has taken me. I am sorry people are frustrated I cannot supply more information, but do to so would require posting the whole book, not one part, due to it being one continuous system.
Quote:Matthew wrote:
So, IS there an ancient source that says something to the effect of, "Oh, no, we CAN'T have more than 60 centuries in a legion, because of the orbit of Venus!" Even a hint of such thinking? If not, you're way out on a limb.
First, I did not say the orbit of Venus restricted the number of centuries to 60. I stated the five known planets visible to the naked eye multiplied by the 12 signs of the zodiac produce the number 60. This is common knowledge in astronomic circles. Also it is common knowledge the Romans, like the Babylonians, used the sexagesimal place value system, (based on five planets and the zodiac), not the decimal; that is the numbers are based on sixes, not tens. The figure of 60 is ten parts of 6, not six parts of ten. The modern system of counting hours, minutes and seconds is derived from it. Everything is broken into 60 parts, so one part is one sixtieth, and five parts, five sixtieth. Polybius’ legion of 4200 men is made up of 70 parts (70 sixtieths), and Livy’s 5400 man legion at Magnesia is made up of 90 parts. If you go up the next level, to one part being 600 men, Polybius’ legion is 7 parts and Livy’s legion, 9 parts. The Roman maths when reaching 10, as they say, is to start again, referred to them as the cycle. So the maximum is 6000 (10 parts of 600 men, or 100 parts of 60).
Ancient astronomers like Geminos, Eratosthenes, Pliny and others give the circumference of the Earth at 252,000 stades. Therefore, as Geminos is using the sexagesimal system, he writes the Earth contains 60 parts each of 4200 stades. The Romans allocate 600 stades to a degree, so 4200 stades = 7 degrees, and Livy’s legion of 5400 men equates to 9 degrees, and 6000 stades to 10 degrees. The Earth (252,000 stades = 420 degrees), so Polybius legion of 7 degrees represents one sixtieth (420 divided by 7 degrees). This is the system behind the legion and it is driven by their cosmos system. Geminos makes a reference to Polybius having written a book “On the regions about the Equator” which define the Earth being divided into six zones. The Earth’s circumference of 252,000 stades when divided into Polybius’ six zones allocates each zone 42,000 stades, with a zone made up of 10 parts of 4200 stades (amounting to 60 parts).
Plutarch Life of Sulla 7: “For according to them (Tuscans) there are eight ages in all, differing from one another in the lives and customs of men, and to each of these God has appointed a definite number of times and seasons, which is completed by the circuit of a great year.” Now according to some like Censorinus, a great year equates to 60 years.
Quote:Matthew wrote:
And there are some pretty sharp saws in this crowd.
But have modern writers’ explored ancient mathematics, which is intertwined with geometry and astronomy? To answer this question, simply look up the bibliographies of every book you have on the Roman legion. If the author hasn’t, then this is akin to buying a 1000 piece jigsaw puzzle, and throwing out two thirds of the pieces. This methodology will always result in never seeing the complete picture, therefore no consensus of opinion, and this has been going on for hundreds of years.
Question: if the Roman system does not reflect their cosmos system, then why do the Romans then assigned gods to hours of the day as described by Cassius Dio (History of Rome, XXXVII, 19.1-3):
"If you begin at the first hour to count the hours of the day and of the night, assigning the first to Saturn, the next to the great god Jupiter, the third to Mars, the fourth to the Sun, the fifth to Venus, the sixth to Mercury, and the seventh to the Moon, according to the order of cycles which the Egyptians observe, and if you repeat the process, covering thus the whole twenty-four hours, you will find that the first hour of the following day comes to the Sun. And if you carry on the operation throughout the next twenty-four hours in the same manner as with the others, you will dedicate the first hour of the third day to the Moon, and if you proceed similarly throughout the rest, each day will receive its appropriate god. This, then, is the tradition."
If the ancients define their systems as a macro micro system, then if the Romans are basing hours to a god, then why not years and decades, a point made by a fragment believed written by Trismegistus:
“The dominion of the planets over the ages of man is as follows: the Moon governs the first age, which consists of 4 years. Mercury governs the second, which consists of 10 years. Venus the third, and this extends to 8 years. The Sun the fourth, and this age consists of 19 years. Mars the fifth, and this consists of 15 years Jupiter, the sixth, consists of 12 years: and Saturn governs the seventh age, and this extends to the remaining years of human life.”
The reference to Mars consisting of 15 years, coincidently when multiplied by the zodiac circle of 360 degrees equals 5400. Now if you want to tie this in with Livy’s legion of 5400 men, you first need to make it precisely fit (no fudging) the mathematical system of the cosmos. Proclus Commentary on the First Alcibiades of Plato also mentions the same ruling system of gods over a man’s lifespan:
“For our age (says he) partakes in an eminent degree of the lunar energies, as we then live according to a nutritive and physical power. But our second age participates of Mercurial prerogatives, because we then apply ourselves to letters, music and wrestling. The third age is governed by Venus, because then we begin to produce seed, and the generative powers of nature are put in motion. The fourth age is Solar, for then our youth is in its vigour and full of perfection, subsisting as a medium between generation and decay; for such is the order which vigour is allocated. But the fifth age is governed by Mars, in which we principally aspire after power and superiority over others. The sixth age is governed by Jupiter, for this we give ourselves up to prudence, and pursue an active and political life. And the seventh age is Saturnian, in which it is natural to separate ourselves from generation, and transfer ourselves to an incorporeal life.”
Now for those who didn’t like my comment Venus corresponds with the time frame of the Servian legion, Venus again corresponds from the above to eight years. Venus is given by the ancients as eight degrees, and has five rising and five setting, and when multiplied by 8 produces 40. Ovid’s (Fasti 1 39) gives the following: “The month of Mars was first, that of Venus second: she was his line’s princeps.” The ancient astronomers assign numbers to the planets and also provide their sesquitertian or sesquialter ratios, so one can distinguish what number exceeds which by a monad, triad, tetrad or dyad, and so on. Interestingly, the ancients call the tetrad, the shield bearer of the hebdomad. The ancient cosmos is a sexagesimal place value system; the Roman legion is a sexagesimal place value system. There’s your first link. The Romans have to base their system on something, so why not the cosmos. The cosmos represent divinity and as Aristotle states the system is perfect without disorder. Geminos writes “the motion of the stars is simple, uniform and orderly.” The Romans organised their military camps so every man knew his place, thereby eliminating disorder. Are we to accept the Romans only did this in their military camps and the rest of their systems, be it social or military, allowed for degrees of disorder? Had my research led me to undeniable evidence the Romans based their systems on the number of bricks in a temple, then that would be my conclusion. However, replicating their cosmos system is so logical and the Romans are not the only ones. I recently came across a paper by archaeologist connecting Mayan city planning being based on their cosmos. The Aztecs even have a war calendar. And talking of calendar, in 300 BC, the consuls, for the first time made the calendar available to the public. For the campaign of 299 BC, for the first time Livy numbers the legions. Why this happened is a lifting of censorship as the consular legions and what they represent relate to the cosmos system, and was sacred priestly science. The science of the heavenly spheres consists of four things; centre, diameter, circumference and area (ie surface). The properties of the four legions represent sameness in the monad, the difference in the dyad, the colures in the triad, and solidarity in the tetrad. Geminos defines the colures as the circles passing through the poles and is divided into four equal parts. Accompanying this, there are four types of planetary movements, progression, retrogression and two modes of being stationary, primary and secondary. These determine whether you multiply or add the data.
