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Battle of Cunaxa Illustration
#20
Quote:Not necessarily. The heavy horsemen are clearly based on John Warry’s reconstruction of Kyros’ horse guard and I think, there are some possible mistakes in that reconstruction and I wrote a text long time ago on TWC (presenting my own model of that guard for RTW):

I'm afraid John Warry is not responsible for any 'possible' mistakes in that depiction - it was my research that the illustration was based on, Kai, so the responsibility is mine. Smile

Quote:but also other works, most notably the ‘Kyropaideia’. Although describing Kyros the Great, many of the descriptions have to be applied on Kyros the Younger, especially those about his companions’ arms and armour, representing early 4th cent high tech.

Caution is required here - after all the Cyropaedia is a work of fiction in which Xenophon sets out some of his 'idealised' views on arms, armour and tactics - including high tech, thus his descriptions of cavalry equipment for example are what he thinks they should ideally have , rather than how they were equipped in reality.
Quote:....but has a throat guard (cf. Xen.Kyr. I 2,13).
I think your reference is incorrect - do you mean Xenophon's recommendations on cavalry equipment ? In any event there is no mention of throatguards in the Anabasis, nor do Darius' guards in the Alexander mosaic have them ( though Alexander wore one on occasion according to Plutarch, and one was found in the 'Philip' tomb)
Quote:The παραμηρίδια (cf. Xen.Anab. I 8,6) are not some kind of armoured trousers, as Warry reconstructs, but parts of the horse armour.
No "trousers" are depicted, but 'chaps' - and they are shown fastened exactly as on the sculpture you show, a strap across the horses withers, and a further strap around the lower back of the rider.
Quote:The question for a shield cannot be answered for sure, in fact, there are some passages in the Kyropaideia noting shields (cf. Xen.Kyr. I 2,9), but he seems to present them as something old-fashioned,
Persian cavalry did not carry shields at this early date, and the 'garrison' referred to in your reference as having light shields are not described as mounted...they take "long tramps and runs" and are clearly on foot.
Quote:The throat guard is another new protective equipment, which is reported to be shaped tightly on the neck
...again, Xenophon is describing his ideal, and would surely have mentioned its use at Cunaxa, if it was used....but he doesn't.
Quote:Xenophon is reporting often purple (cf. Xen.Kyr.VII 1,2),

Again, the Cyropaedia is fiction, and all sorts of people wear purple.....unlike reality, where it is largely restricted to Royalty.( which might extend to the King's "friends", but would not be widely worn.)
Quote:seldom red (cf. Xen.Kyr. VIII 3,3) as the colour of the companions’ cloths
...the items here described as purple(again), sable, red and walnut red are cloaks/kandys, not tunics and are 'costly' gifts to close friends of The Great King in Xenophon's imagination - hardly the best guide to real life.
Quote:but never never yellow
The earlier Persepolis reliefs show all sorts of colours, including yellow tunics for the Great Kings guards. Yellow/yellowish tunics are also worn by some of Darius' guards on the Alexander mosaic.
Quote:Moreover purple surcoats could have been worn during the battle of Kunaxa (cf. Plut.Arta. XI 6), omitted by Warry
Plutarch has Cyrus eunuch servants ( not guards) possibly wearing purple tunics. He also has Cyrus killed after nightfall !
Quote: The only certified colour of the helmet’s plume is white (cf. Xen.Kyr.VII 1,2), not black
Again, from Xenophon's imagination in his work of fiction for the legendary Cyrus ! The Anabasis makes no mention of plume colour and black is the most common.
It would not be good research to base a reconstruction with an over-reliance on a single source, especially when that source is a work of fiction!! Smile
The reconstruction in "Warfare in the Classical World" is as accurate as any, and is based on many sources - coins, the sculptures you refer to, the Alexander mosaic (for possible colours), Xenophon's works and others I can no longer recall.
Johnny's painting is therefore also as accurate as any other reconstruction, nor is it outside the realms of possibility that a Scythian-style parapleuridae could be the personal choice or even war-trophy of an individual Persian warrior - it is dangerous, given the general paucity of information on things ancient to categorically say something could 'never' be !! :wink: :wink:
I also like the fact that the Persian cavalry are shown mostly unarmoured which is how they are likely to have been, with only guards and officers having the complete panoply.
Quote:Also, the helmet which Warry reconstructed Cyrus' bodyguard with is based on Hellenistic styles, that is, too early for the period in question.
The helmet and crest style were taken from an early fourth century coin - the pilos type more commonly depicted was not the only option - though it is possible the coin was intended to show that type, and it was slightly distorted to fit the coin.It is most certainly not Hellenistic. Smile
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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Messages In This Thread
Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Johnny Shumate - 08-21-2007, 12:13 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Ioannis - 08-21-2007, 12:20 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Conal - 08-21-2007, 12:46 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Zenodoros - 08-22-2007, 08:23 AM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Paullus - 08-22-2007, 11:57 PM
re - by Johnny Shumate - 08-23-2007, 02:30 AM
Re: re - by Kai - 08-25-2007, 06:06 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Laran - 08-25-2007, 07:07 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by geala - 08-25-2007, 10:06 PM
Cunaxa illustration - by Paullus Scipio - 08-26-2007, 11:00 AM
Cunaxa - by Paullus Scipio - 08-26-2007, 09:56 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Kai - 08-29-2007, 12:20 AM
Cunaxa illustration - by Paullus Scipio - 08-29-2007, 03:49 AM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Laran - 08-30-2007, 04:11 PM
Cunaxa Illustration - by Paullus Scipio - 08-30-2007, 11:47 PM
re - by Johnny Shumate - 08-31-2007, 02:38 AM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Senovara - 08-31-2007, 03:00 AM
Cunaxa illustration - by Paullus Scipio - 08-31-2007, 03:11 AM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Laran - 08-31-2007, 12:32 PM
re - by Johnny Shumate - 08-31-2007, 03:55 PM
Cunaxa illustration - by Paullus Scipio - 08-31-2007, 08:04 PM
Re: Cunaxa illustration - by MeinPanzer - 09-01-2007, 07:31 AM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Laran - 09-01-2007, 11:25 AM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Laran - 09-01-2007, 01:04 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Laran - 09-01-2007, 01:08 PM
Re: re - by Senovara - 09-02-2007, 12:04 AM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by geala - 09-02-2007, 11:16 AM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Laran - 09-02-2007, 12:08 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Laran - 09-02-2007, 12:21 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Laran - 09-03-2007, 09:12 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Zenodoros - 09-04-2007, 06:41 AM
Cunaxa illustration - by Paullus Scipio - 09-04-2007, 09:30 PM
Cunaxa - by Paullus Scipio - 09-05-2007, 06:53 AM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by geala - 09-07-2007, 06:17 AM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Laran - 09-07-2007, 07:03 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Laran - 09-07-2007, 07:24 PM
Another Persian source - by Duncan Head - 09-10-2007, 03:33 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by artaxerxes - 09-10-2007, 10:19 PM
Re: Another Persian source - by Mithras - 10-09-2007, 06:16 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Artabanos - 10-19-2007, 12:04 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Mithras - 10-19-2007, 03:09 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Artabanos - 10-19-2007, 04:32 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Laran - 10-19-2007, 05:03 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Mithras - 10-19-2007, 10:06 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Artabanos - 10-19-2007, 10:24 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by MeinPanzer - 10-23-2007, 03:15 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by MeinPanzer - 10-23-2007, 04:29 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by MeinPanzer - 10-23-2007, 04:58 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Artabanos - 10-23-2007, 06:54 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Laran - 10-24-2007, 09:25 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Artabanos - 10-27-2007, 10:09 AM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Laran - 11-02-2007, 11:24 AM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by MeinPanzer - 11-02-2007, 12:25 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Laran - 11-02-2007, 01:22 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by bachmat66 - 11-18-2007, 04:06 AM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by gie - 11-18-2007, 08:17 PM
re - by Johnny Shumate - 11-18-2007, 08:51 PM
Re: re - by gie - 11-18-2007, 09:10 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Artabanos - 11-18-2007, 09:23 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by MeinPanzer - 11-18-2007, 09:28 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by MeinPanzer - 11-18-2007, 09:31 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by gie - 11-18-2007, 09:49 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by MeinPanzer - 11-18-2007, 09:57 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Vishtaspa - 11-19-2007, 01:24 AM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Artabanos - 11-19-2007, 02:03 AM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by MeinPanzer - 11-19-2007, 08:44 AM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Vishtaspa - 11-19-2007, 12:39 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Vishtaspa - 11-19-2007, 12:42 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Vishtaspa - 11-19-2007, 01:03 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Artabanos - 11-19-2007, 03:23 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Vishtaspa - 11-19-2007, 06:23 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by MeinPanzer - 11-20-2007, 10:31 AM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by MeinPanzer - 11-21-2007, 09:02 AM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by gie - 11-27-2007, 08:20 PM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Vishtaspa - 11-28-2007, 12:28 AM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by Vishtaspa - 11-28-2007, 01:38 AM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by MeinPanzer - 11-28-2007, 11:33 AM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by gie - 02-27-2008, 11:35 AM
Re: Battle of Cunaxa Illustration - by MeinPanzer - 03-03-2008, 09:34 AM

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