11-05-2009, 06:34 PM
Thanks, Giannis. And this chiton is 60 x 90 inches.
As to cutting cloth, and using linen--I'm not saying that Athens didn't import linen. I'm just saying that I no longer see any "linen" in pictures--I see wool. The Greek ideal--from Hesiod to Xenophon's Oeconomia--is to wear what your wife weaves--and what your wife weaves should come from your own farm(s). Further, Giannis--none--and I mean none--of the garments I see hang like linen. Maybe some arguably do--see my argument below.
Hey, we can argue forever--and there's no need. This is the sort of thing that took 18th c. reenactors about 20 years to settle. Our subject was cotton. cotton existed in the 18th c. It's just--no one wore it! Reenactors wanted to use it because it is and was so much cheaper than linen--but in the end, we're mostly rid of it. It took thousands and thousands of runaway citations and other bits of evidence to kill it off.
Also remember--for linen to hang smoothly, it must be ironed or pressed. Unless very fine, it won't hang right--it "billows." And it holds pleats differently than wool. My main evidence is all the statuary I saw in Greece--that killed my views on linen.
That said, though--I'll still wear linen and so will many others. Why? WEAR! Proper wool--the weight we're getting woven in Nepal--doesn't wear very well. If it snags something, it tears or runs. Under armor, it's going to be wrecked unless the armour is smooth inside. I'm NOT saying "linen is wrong." I'm saying "linen is probably not the average--wool is the average."
That's important because, if hoplite reenactors wish to be taken seriously by historians and sites, they have to be willing to recreate--and describe--the "average" hoplite, not the richest or most ostentatious. Nor can hoplite reenactors succumb to trying to make their kit meet modern sensibilities of comfort.
It's a subtle point--not a dogma.
Cutting--well, that's a whole other subject. See--what I don't see in Greece is any of the mechanisms of sewing. Ever see a picture of women sewing? Ever see a thimble? A needle case? Scissors? (I have a pair at Sardis, from the American dig there.) I can make the whole "drape over the thighs" look without cutting anything--rather like donning a great-kilt for 1745. I don't see the technology--or the inclination--for Greeks to "sew" or "tailor." Even most Greek embroidery seems to have been done on the loom--not on cloth. A visit to john Conyer's Comitatus website and a review of his literature on the "Coptic" tunic of late-Roman times will show that this is STILL true then--they WEAVE the tunic with the decoration WOVEN IN.
Sewing is an artifact of abundant cloth, good quality thread, and cheap steel needles. Barbarian peoples--the Scyths, for instance--do the same with sinew and leather, but they don't need needles! And I find it interesting that the only article I've been able to find on Greek leather work says that they sewed ALL their leather with sinew--ie, they did NOT USE NEEDLES.
Hey--again, I'm not actually pedantic about this. More "questioning." I'm prepared to find evidence of sewing--in fact, I'd prefer to. I just don't see it. There's bronze needles from the digs at Sardis, for instance--so Greeks knew about needles. And many of the pleats I see in wool garments would more easily have been tacked in with thread--I see that too. On the other hand...
Okay, I could write a dissertation. Let's just agree to disagree, and keep making chitons! I think yours are beautiful--and at this stage in recreation, having them look good and wear well is about all we can hope for!
As to cutting cloth, and using linen--I'm not saying that Athens didn't import linen. I'm just saying that I no longer see any "linen" in pictures--I see wool. The Greek ideal--from Hesiod to Xenophon's Oeconomia--is to wear what your wife weaves--and what your wife weaves should come from your own farm(s). Further, Giannis--none--and I mean none--of the garments I see hang like linen. Maybe some arguably do--see my argument below.
Hey, we can argue forever--and there's no need. This is the sort of thing that took 18th c. reenactors about 20 years to settle. Our subject was cotton. cotton existed in the 18th c. It's just--no one wore it! Reenactors wanted to use it because it is and was so much cheaper than linen--but in the end, we're mostly rid of it. It took thousands and thousands of runaway citations and other bits of evidence to kill it off.
Also remember--for linen to hang smoothly, it must be ironed or pressed. Unless very fine, it won't hang right--it "billows." And it holds pleats differently than wool. My main evidence is all the statuary I saw in Greece--that killed my views on linen.
That said, though--I'll still wear linen and so will many others. Why? WEAR! Proper wool--the weight we're getting woven in Nepal--doesn't wear very well. If it snags something, it tears or runs. Under armor, it's going to be wrecked unless the armour is smooth inside. I'm NOT saying "linen is wrong." I'm saying "linen is probably not the average--wool is the average."
That's important because, if hoplite reenactors wish to be taken seriously by historians and sites, they have to be willing to recreate--and describe--the "average" hoplite, not the richest or most ostentatious. Nor can hoplite reenactors succumb to trying to make their kit meet modern sensibilities of comfort.
It's a subtle point--not a dogma.
Cutting--well, that's a whole other subject. See--what I don't see in Greece is any of the mechanisms of sewing. Ever see a picture of women sewing? Ever see a thimble? A needle case? Scissors? (I have a pair at Sardis, from the American dig there.) I can make the whole "drape over the thighs" look without cutting anything--rather like donning a great-kilt for 1745. I don't see the technology--or the inclination--for Greeks to "sew" or "tailor." Even most Greek embroidery seems to have been done on the loom--not on cloth. A visit to john Conyer's Comitatus website and a review of his literature on the "Coptic" tunic of late-Roman times will show that this is STILL true then--they WEAVE the tunic with the decoration WOVEN IN.
Sewing is an artifact of abundant cloth, good quality thread, and cheap steel needles. Barbarian peoples--the Scyths, for instance--do the same with sinew and leather, but they don't need needles! And I find it interesting that the only article I've been able to find on Greek leather work says that they sewed ALL their leather with sinew--ie, they did NOT USE NEEDLES.
Hey--again, I'm not actually pedantic about this. More "questioning." I'm prepared to find evidence of sewing--in fact, I'd prefer to. I just don't see it. There's bronze needles from the digs at Sardis, for instance--so Greeks knew about needles. And many of the pleats I see in wool garments would more easily have been tacked in with thread--I see that too. On the other hand...
Okay, I could write a dissertation. Let's just agree to disagree, and keep making chitons! I think yours are beautiful--and at this stage in recreation, having them look good and wear well is about all we can hope for!
Qui plus fait, miex vault.
