They were as good as any other....myth!

[Nikic031]

Hello everyone,

"Individually Spartans were as good as any other men....".
I started this topic because I felt it needed to be straightened out. And not tu ruin "hippeis not hippies" thread.

First, I will make a parallel between Spartan citizen soldiers with today special force units,and I have a good reason for that.Read on.

Nowhere today can the ancient Agoge be seen more closely than in these units,and nowhere today can high standards of discipline be seen,and achieved by brutal punishment than there.All members of these units come voluntary and have the same ideal in their minds(remember Tyratios’s poems).
How do I know.Not from History channel..Two of my close family members were and are members of our Gendarmerie unit,one 15years of service and one 4years(Gendarmerie here is same to British SAS only police,or even better comparison is with Russian OMON).And I talked with them on this topic and they helped me in understanding the effect and purpose of that hard drill,and will help my words having more strength to you readers.
Gendarmerie numbers 2000 men,has brutal training, and is not even the best special force here,as there is even more elite unit of SAJ(numbering some 100-150 strong,being one of the top in Europe,judging by: special force competitions,having many international awards and being declared by Israelis and British SAS as the „one in top 10 strongest in World.“).

Why did I write all this,it has strong point – SAJ and similar forces have unbelievable selection and drill,and the ferocious discipline and lack of all individuality. And their ultimate purpose as a team is perfectly organized and executed plan of action - for example storming a hijacked plane (For Spartans that was phalanx)..
BUT: Even SAJ members do not win every shooting competition as individuals,quite the opposite,they are usually second or third.They are beaten by civilian teams with better marksman,they are not the fastest runners-they get beaten often by civilian athletic competitors,they are not the strongest as they get beaten by lifters,not the best wrestlers as they get beaten there by wrestlers..But the thing is they are always in the top of the list,while wrestler sucks as shooting,shooter gets crushed in ring etc etc...That is the difference.They are the best team(twenty 2nd and 3rd places(not worse for sure) beat the one 1st and bunch of 17th,18th,and 20th places)...Just like the Spartiates. Get my point yet? That is the meaning of „Spartans are not better than others 1on1“..But not in sense you understood-that they can be matched by regular farmer,because it is surreal, but in the sense that there are some better individuals out there (just like SAJ case)..But there is no group with better average!
How can I be that sure-The system. It shapes men,men do not shape the system.

As for phalanx,well,it was the ultimate reason to do all this two decade drill.YOU CAN NOT HAVE A STRONG UNBEATABLE PHALANX WITHOUT AT LEAST EXCELLENT INDIVIDUALS(not necessarily the best out there,but the best average for sure,see above part). Phalanx is not some magical tank machine which kills on it;s own.It is broken down to two men being able to kill efficiently and be guarded by one on the right. It does not take +-23 years to master this simplest way of warfare.But it does take +-23 years to get men prepared to be a part of that machine.

And this is where my helpers go in:
Exercising only one thing(phalanx) would not get them unbeatable in it,just like running only 100m would not get you champion in it. In order to make a formidable phalanx you need a systematic training,and most of it is mental training. Quote the 15years Gendarmerie member „70 percent of drill is directed to mental toughness“. Until they think like Tyrtaios.
And then,or better say along it comes the wrestling,boxing,conditioning,sword and spear fighting and icing on the cake -phalanx perfection training (this is the room clearance and CQB etc..in special forces,you don't come to it until you are good enough).And all knew and know today,you need all of those components or you won't have a good team(phalanx).

I understand that we civilians can say „they directed training only at phalanx and as individuals they were same as farmers“.But military men laughed,honest word. They said,it does not work that way,not 2500years ago,not 1000years ago ,not today.
So comparing two decades of brutal SYSTEMATIC drill with a month a year at best of unwilling training of a regular hoplite (most of them),is just ridiculous.

And once again:
The meaning of „Spartans are not better than others 1on1“..Is not in sense many of you understood-that they can be matched by any regular farmer-soldier,but in the sense that there are some better individuals out there...But there is no group with better average(of first, second and third places in some imaginary scale of combat skill)...
And it has to be like that,system that strong and inflexible human being just can not resist,they would be made into excellent combat men even if they tried not to.AS INDIVIDUALS! BECAUSE INDIVIDUALS MAKE PHALANX,IT IS NOT MADE ON IT'S OWN.

Thank you for reading all this text.