Giannis vs Polinik on the color of bronze :)

[Paullus Scipio]

Christian wrote:

Dear Paul,
1. well, you said the reddish bronze didn´t exist. That´s why I was arguing. However, items like Haltern #385 are not exceptions, they exist in large numbers (manly in pre-Caesarian context). I just took out one example from which I posted the complete met. analysis / alloy.
I didn't say that at all- so I think you may have misunderstood......I said this:-

whilst ancient bronzes varied, they were closer to modern 'yellowish' brass in appearance than modern 'reddish' bronze.....

note that I referred to variation, and later gave the varying percentages of ancient bronze.....and the most common are around 10%, and note I also said that the colour was 'closer' to brass than modern coppery/red bronzes, not identical and elsewhere said they could be hard to tell apart with the naked eye ( especially in differing light conditions!) I also said:-

it should be noted that 'modern' reddish bronzes such as phosphor bronze did not exist in ancient times

....in response to your reference to phosphor bronze - and you agreed that phosphor bronze did not exist back then !

2. Basically yes, that would be what we would expect, but again there are not enough examples of which we have an analysis to back up such a statement.

3. Oh, I think this is important. You were using the helmet as an example for the hypothesis that there were many "yellowish" helmets, plus that the coppery bronzes are rather a modern thing. In fact all these factors I named may have indeed changed the bronze from a reddish to a yellowish tone. IIRC these things are discussed in detail in the publications of the bronzes of the Mahdia shipwreck. As I said above, to find out what colour there was originally, we need to re-cast the alloy. It doesn´t help to look at the item as it is now.
True, I was using that helmet as an example of a 'yellow' looking bronze helmet - which it is, as even your photos demonstrate. There are many more examples I could have used, though few quite so good as hat one. If one wishes to see examples of re-cast alloys around 10% or so tin, then a look at Jeroen's site, posted by Greg, shows 'gold/yellow' bronze new-cast artifacts. Jeroen does point out, as Dan Howard did here ( and with which I agreed) that to a trained or discerning eye yellow 'bronze' can be distinguished from yellow 'brass' because one has a slightly 'warm' or 'rosy' hue and the other a 'cold' or greenish tint, but the distinction is subtle and a layman can easily mistake one for the other ( or even gold for that matter)......... and neither bears a resemblance to the coppery colour that we moderns associate with 'bronze' due to modern bronzes.....