It's very dissapointing to learn/know that Romans did not use drums, as far as we can tell now, for marching and such...Heck, they could have banged thier sheilds with pila or gladii for all we know but noone cared to carve it into something back then.<br>
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It makes the classical piece "The Pines of Rome: Pines of the Appian Way" by Respighi seem so unfitting for what otherwise makes a kick-ass Roman-sounding composition.<br>
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::SIGH:: oh well.<br>
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By the way, I thought Romans marched Right foot first, so it would have been Dex, Dex, Dex, Sin, Dex?<br>
-ANDY<br>
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In the pipe band we march to 2/4, 3/4, 4/4, and 6/8 tunes. It's just a question of finding the beat. I find the route seems much shorter when marching in cadence than if I were just to walk it any old way, but that is on a straight flat surface. I wonder if Roman soldiers ever sang rhythmic songs when they had long distances to march.<br>
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Wendy<br>
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<p>"I am an admirer of the ancients,but not like some people so as to despise the talent of our own times." Pliny the Younger</p><i></i>
Unfortunately we lost the sound tracks from the ancient times. We don't have the songs any longer.<br>
But until quite recently people sang a lot and I suspect it was also like that in roman times.<br>
They probably had marching songs, ballads and so on..<br>
We do know there was some pretty disrespectful songs by the soldiers about their general, Caesar being the surviving example. We don't know whether this kind of performance was only authorized during triumphs but again I personally suspect the soldiers sang such songs on the march as well.<br>
As for "authentic" ancient music, the closer to "authentic" I've heard so far are the corsican polyphonic songs.<br>
The corsican language is still close to latin and they sing "a capela". These traditional songs are nostalgic and sad but they really sound very, very ancient. There is really nothing it can be compared with.<br>
There was a group called "I Muvrini" that made a couple of good recordings at the beginning of their carrer, then they got successful and in came the electronics...<br>
I would strongly advise this type of singing during reenactment shows.<br>
I remember an old medieval song with a very nice tune to it:<br>
"Le roy Renault de guerre s'en vinct,<br>
Portant ses trypes dans ses mains.."<br>
Hee hee hee... <p></p><i></i>
Hrm<br>
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The only contemporary band that has played "ancient" music I can think of is/was Dead Can Dance..."Saltorello" comes to mind but I don't know how "ancient" nor how "Romanesque" thier music is. I think they had focused more on Middle-Eastern type music?<br>
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At least they sound good to me<br>
-ANDY <p></p><i></i>
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Saltorello is a 14th century piece. They have another medievel piece that is also quite good, but the title escapes me. There is another group that attempts Roman and Greek reconstructed (by hypothesis) music- it was mentioned in an older thread somewhere around here- Praecones Britanniae. The leader, David Marshall, passed away, but the rest of the band continues. I recently bought their CD, "Somnia Imperii," it's quite good.<br>
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Dead Can Dance have a couple of medieval (and medievalish) pieces, but they are a lot more recent than anything the Romans would have heard. And if you want modern takes on medieval(ish) music, I'd highly recommend [url=http://www.mediaevalbaebes.com/" target="top]The Medieval Baebes[/url]. Technically, they ain't the greatest medieval-style singers in the world but ... well, they are babes. Especially [url=http://www.mediaevalbaebes.com/babe_pics/flash/tcs.html" target="top]Teresa Casella[/url], who I intend to marry one day.<br>
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But if you want to hear something which may be like music heard in (late) Roman times, listen to some [url=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000149E/002-7916933-5103221" target="top]Ambrosian Chant[/url]. It's the oldest form of Church music and first dates to the time of St Ambrose. It's unlikely to be much like soldiers' songs though.<br>
Cheers, <p>Tim O'Neill / Thiudareiks Flavius<br>
<br>
Visit 'Clades Variana' - Home of the Varus Film Project<br>
<br>
Help create the film of Publius Quinctilius Varus' lost legions.<br>
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Come to my [url=http://www.ancientworlds.net/member/Gunthigg/Thiudareiks" target="top]Stathigg[/url] in [url=http://www.ancientworlds.net/aw/City/23413" target="top]Germania[/url] at the [url=http://www.ancientworlds.net/" target="top]Ancient Worlds[/url] community.</p><i></i>
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Frank, did you buy your Somnia Imperii CD from the Ancestral Instruments site or is it available elsewhere? I'm always nervous about ordering things from overseas though I can't say I've ever had a problem with Amazon.co.uk.<br>
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From the sound clips, the music seems to me to have a sort of Middle Eastern flavour. There are certainly drums in the mix, too. Having had a chance to hear a lot more, how would you describe it?<br>
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Wendy <p>"I am an admirer of the ancients,but not like some people so as to despise the talent of our own times." Pliny the Younger</p><i></i>
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Wendy,<br>
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I did buy it directly from them. I was a bit leary at first, but I could tell from reading the site that this was a pretty professional group that would not intentionally screw a buyer.<br>
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On the whole, I really liked the CD. I admit, I bought it primarily for the <em>Legio Hispana</em> track and was disappointed that it was so short! I also did not like how some of the songs were grouped together- perhaps it is my primitive radio system, but I wasn't able to skip to certain songs without listening to all of the ones in that particular group. I hope that makes sense.<br>
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Anyway, aside from those very minor points, the CD is excellent. Yes, they do use <em>tympana</em> and quite a bit of other percussion instruments. In fact, they use a WIDE variety of instruments quite expertly. I highly recommend it.<br>
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A Roman group called Synaulia has a CD (Music from Ancient Rome: Vol 1 Wind Instruments) with music played solely with recreations of ancient Roman instruments and with a modern composer attempting to recreate how the ancient music may have sounded based on what minimal evidence there exists and musical "sense" based on the instruments.<br>
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It's an interesting attempt. Some of the music sounds pretty dire to modern ears, though there are a few tolerable tunes. One or two of their compositions were actually used in Gladiator as background music, I noticed (e.g., during the party after the Roman victory in the movie). <p>Strategy <br>
Designer/Developer <br>
Imperium - Rise of Rome</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=strategym>StrategyM</A> at: 8/29/03 7:46 am<br></i>
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Yeah, that sounds alot like what Praecones does too. Where is Synaulia's CD sold? I'll check amazon now, but just in case it isn't there, I thought I'd ask. Thanks!<br>
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Just checked- volume 1 is listed, although not guaranteed in stock. Volume 2- same story, but they have 8 new or used from 2nd hand dealers. They also have some sample tracks available for anyone who is interested. Sounds pretty good- I'll definitely pick these up.<br>
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Never had a problem with the Ancestral Instreuments people as far as ordering the Somnii Imperii CD. They are a solid group, and Mr. Marshall was quite a loss tot he Roman and Ancient music community. His wife Valerie Marshall now runs the company. The CD is GREAT for background music at feast and such, the groupings are odd, and one song is done in English and Greek, an odd combo, but on the whole I find it very enjoyable. <p>Rusty Myers<br>
www.SouloftheWarrior.com Commander, Legio VI FFC<br>
www.LEGVI.com </p><i></i>
SALVE MILITES<br>
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I foundt this thread fascinating.. bah, I should go to this forum more often<br>
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Anyway, anyone know any more details regarding the flutes being used for the Lakedaimonians/Spartans?<br>
I read a book called "Sparta" recently, and in there, they play drums AND flutes simultaneously.<br>
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btw, I think there are a VERY few fragments of music left after the barbarism enveloped Rome, and in the end sacked by the Visigoths.. something like 24 or 14?<br>
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I could be wrong.. I just know I've read it somewhere. <p></p><i></i>
If you want to hear what the romans heard from their khymric and gallic adversaries go here...<br>
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www.carnyx.musicscotland.com/<br>
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Valete,<br>
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Owain <p></p><i></i>
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Returning from this very interesting discussion about musical intrument, back to the original question about marching.
My questions would be these:
1) is it possible to march without rythem and keeping a 'military step'?
My personal military experience (which is not that significant, I admit it) is that without someone giving any verbal signal how to keep in step, some will take large strides and some shorter ones. this causes confusion and gaps in the file, which is extremely tiring to those walking in, say, the second half of the file. Those at the back will be straining to keep up.
Is it feasable to assume that the Roman army, accustomed to marching large distances, did not 'perfect' their marching?
2) IF commands were used to keef the file in a single military step, what could that have been? Vocal or 'musical'? I would exclude someone hiting the road with a staff, for instane, because that would have no use in soft terrain. A voice command, then?
3) (Now it's getting dangerous). What, apart from a good case of anachronism), would be the greatest argument against using the good old 'sin-dex-sin' (or dex-sin-dex) for such a voice command?
(ducking under the table before pressing SUBMIT)
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