Iphicratian Pelte & Pelte Sarrisophoron

[sitalkes]

[/quote]
...whilst that might be a theoretical possibility,I don't know of any 'oval' shields unequivocally referred to or depicted prior to the Gallic invasions...do you? ( Not counting depictions where the 'oval' is more likely to be a circle viewed from an angle! :wink: )[/quote]

Hi, there are depictions of Illyrians with oval shields, the Thracians in the Kazanluk paintings (late 4th century/early 3rd) have oval shields, and the Kyustendil shield is oval and also late 4th century

[Paullus Scipio]

Sorry......should have excluded these as well !

The Illyrians, of course had contact with the Italiot people who originated scutum/thureos type shields, and also had contact with Celtic peoples long before they reached Greece....and from them the shield-type passed to their Thracian neighbours as seen at kazanluk....these are still all well after Iphicrates time, and there is no greek tradition of oval shields until, as I said, after the Celtic invasions - hence anachronistic.

[sitalkes]

There does not seem to have been such a tradition, but 6he Kyustendil Shield comes from south-west Bulgaria, close to Macedonia and not far from the border. It was found with bronze greaves and a Chalcidian helmet. So maybe not a Greek shield but a Macedonian one?

[Hoplitesmores]

Its too far and Macedones used hoplite shields like the rest of the Greeks. . Was a battle fought there? Since its from a mound(a tomb?) this should have been figured out.



Late 4th(301-400) century egg-shaped shield (similar to the Kazanluk shields) found in the Dolna Koznitza mound near Kyustendil in 1989 (south-western Bulgaria). It has a thin fragmented bronze facing and is on display at the Kyustendil Museum.

It looks thracian but with the helm and greaves it would belong to a lord.
Its too far to be Greek its deep in Thrace (bulgaria map)



Choose a tribe!

[Hoplitesmores]

So maybe not a Greek shield but a Macedonian one?

You mean the modern states? Then it would Paeonian or another Thracian tribe of the region.

[MeinPanzer]

Sorry......should have excluded these as well !

The Illyrians, of course had contact with the Italiot people who originated scutum/thureos type shields, and also had contact with Celtic peoples long before they reached Greece....and from them the shield-type passed to their Thracian neighbours as seen at kazanluk....these are still all well after Iphicrates time, and there is no greek tradition of oval shields until, as I said, after the Celtic invasions - hence anachronistic.

There's a bit of a gap between the earliest depiction of a bronze oval shield in Thrace (from Alexandrovo, the most precise dating of which I've seen being second half of the 4th C. BC) and the time of Iphicrates' presence in Thrace, but it very well could be that this Thracian oval shield (which seems to have developed independently from the thureos) developed a bit earlier, and that the traditional pelte was replaced in the early years of the fourth century.

This is, of course, just speculation. However, I wouldn't count the lack of iconographic evidence for Greek use of oval shields in this period as an argument against this theory. The Greeks, after all, widely adopted the thureos in the third century BC and continued to use it down to the last centuries BC, but the only iconographic evidence we have of this is a few scattered remains of votive terracotta shields and a couple of representations on Boeotian funerary stelae.

[Hoplitesmores]

I decided to make them round and hope that another account or archaeological find will prove me right in the future.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

And don't forget that Iphicrates was just the irregularty in his time. We don't know if his reforms were adopted after his action,we can oly speculate how the Thebans and then the Macedonians folloewd his example,but there is no clear line. So while his army was lurking in Greece,it's normal that artists had no idea who Iphicrates was and exactly how his troops looked like.
A point against the "symetrous" meaning circular is that by then the round pelte already existed in Greece,so if his pelte was round,this wouldn't be a reform,would it?
Khairete
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

these are still all well after Iphicrates time, and there is no greek tradition of oval shields until, as I said, after the Celtic invasions - hence anachronistic.

Why on earth are you looking for a greek tradition of oval shields? Iphicrates clearly took the shape from someplace outside of the normal tradition, hence the "reform".

I was going to point out the Italian/Illyrian examples which would may have been encountered by greeks at an early date, but Giannis beat me to it. Remember that the greeks did not adopt a scutum-type shield in large numbers before the early 3rd century, but this does not mean that they were ignorant of the type. Also recall that Iphicrates "reforms" were not generally adopted.

If you see that other thread I started, you'll note that no one seems to know what the large egyptian shields looked like. In a nod to Luke, they could have been oval.

He could have simply have invented oval wicker shields himself. I don't know if anyone has studied pelta evolution, but I assume that the cresent shape allows one to look over the rim while throwiing javelins while maximizing protection. An iphicratid would not need this shape, and if you fill in the cut-out on some elongated pelta, you get an oval.

All that said, I think they were round- if oval shields held by a double-grip and telamon were a good idea, or even functional, I think we'd see it in the macedonian tradition.

[sitalkes]

The pelte’s crescent shape was previously advantageous to a javelin-thrower. If after the reforms, javelins were not thrown, then a round shape makes more sense. Would An oval shape would be a good compromise between the two, as you could move it to favour the narrower shape when throwing the javelin? Does a round shape argue for a peltast with a longer spear and no javelin?

How effective was the crescent-shaped pelte anyway? Surely it would have provided very little protection - maybe protection against a sword swipe or a few arrows at the most. Javelins, thrusting spears, and a sword thrust would surely go straight through.

[Hoplitesmores]

A light crescent or not pelt from wicker would offer more the psychological impression to the wielder that he was protected to a degree than actual protection.A spear and other weapons would run it through easily indeed.

To see it in the context of thracians fighting thracians a romphaia a spear a javelin or sword would ruin the shield as well so it was simply the lightest and worst form of protection but even that was better than nothing.

[PMBardunias]

How effective was the crescent-shaped pelte anyway? Surely it would have provided very little protection - maybe protection against a sword swipe or a few arrows at the most. Javelins, thrusting spears, and a sword thrust would surely go straight through.

Weren't they leather faced? Wicker shields widely used, even by central asians against archery until a few centuries ago. My guess is that they are effective against 'spent' missiles, with javelineers standing off from each other. Think of the "aprons" we see on the hoplite aspis. They can't have been exceptionally effective against anything but light javelins that had lost their momentum at the extreme of their range. They must have been awkward hanging from the shield bottom, and probably added little psychologically above the aspis itself, so they must have been useful.

[sitalkes]

Yes, the pelte could be covered with leather or goatskin. There are also one or two pictures of peltai with skirts.

By the way, have any reenactors tried to reconstruct a double-armed Iphicratean peltast? How practical is it to try to wield a twelve foot/4m spear and a pair of javelins at the same time? Many authors say that this is impossible, but apparently the thureophoroi did it. I suppose they stuck the long spear in the ground while they threw the javelins?

[Hoplitesmores]

The spear would be smaller perhaps as throwing a javelin effectively with a counter balance of a shield and a spear in one hand and hurling it with the other is very tough.Sticking it in the ground and then throwing the javelins is very burdening as well.

It can be done but its not very practical but in war .....

[PMBardunias]

How practical is it to try to wield a twelve foot/4m spear and a pair of javelins at the same time? Many authors say that this is impossible, but apparently the thureophoroi did it.

Chris, I was unaware that they were supposed to have been armed with them both at the same time- as opposed to either/or. Is there a reference for this?

As to Thureophoroi, their lonche were shorter than dorys, right? So not much different than throwing pila.