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Pausanias on Achaean armament, ca. 200 BCE
#16
Paul B. wrote:-
Quote:As far as I am aware, the general consensus is that Cleomenes only armed his new-made troops, those that end up stationed with him on the right at sellasia, as Sarissaphoroi.
...the troops Kleomenes had with him at Sellasia were all the citizens and mercenaries, while on the other flank his brother had the Perioikoi and Allies.(For a full narrative of Sellasia, see a forthcoming issue of Ancient Warfare)
I do not believe that there is any"consensus" that it is only the newly enfranchised helots who are armed in 'Macedonian fashion'. It is the entire citizen body, and if there is a "consensus" it is this. It is clear from Polybius' and Plutarch's accounts of the battle that the Spartan Phalanx of some 6,000 citizens are formed into a Macedonian style phalanx, and indeed we are told so very specifically by Plutarch.
Kleomenes reforms begin with he and the the remaining aristocracy/homioi donating the land back to the State, and it is then parcelled out into new kleroi to create a new class of Homioi/equals/citizens, as of old.
"......And completing the number of citizens out of the best and most promising of the country people(perioikoi), he raised a body of four thousand men; and instead of a spear, taught them to use a sarissa, with both hands, and to carry their shields by a strap/band, and not by a handle/porpax, as before. After this, he began to consult about the education of the youth, and the Discipline, as they call it; most of the particulars of which, Sphaerus, being then at Sparta, assisted in arranging..." Plutarch: Cleomenes XI

Notice that he 'fills up' the body of citizens/homioi and clearly re-equips them all in Macedonian fashion.....

Later, preparing for his new war against Achaea and Macedon....

"...and making such of the helots as could pay five Attic pounds free of Sparta, and, by that means, getting together five hundred talents, and arming two thousand after the Macedonian fashion, that he might make a body fit to oppose Antigonus's Leucaspides, he undertook a great and unexpected enterprise..."

The total, 6,000, are the total number of 'Spartans' referred to in the sources. All the 'Spartans' at Sellasia are thus part of a Macedonian style phalanx.

Quote:That donative of Peltae from Ptolemy comes long after Philopoemen's reforms, so no help in deciding either way for the initial reform
...you are quite right! It is my memory at fault this time - Philopoemen's reforms were carried out in 209/208 B.C.
Ptolemy's gift of "..6,000 bronze-faced shields for peltasts ( Macedonian equipment) and 200 Talents of bronze coin.." occurs in 193 B.C.
However, Plutarch is quite specific about Philopoemen's reforms in 209/208 B.C. - he tells us at length that Philopoemen creates a Macedonian-style phalanx, equipped with Macedonian pikes, and trained to fight close order.
No doubt at all.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#17
I can't find the reference I had in mind, but the arguement must stem from the fact that there were more than 4,000 citizens after he raised his new-made Spartans (there were some 700-1000 Spartiates before he did).

Quote:"......And completing the number of citizens out of the best and most promising of the country people(perioikoi),

This would then be seperate from the second part- his completed citizenry is larger than 4,000, some say 5,000.


Quote:he raised a body of four thousand men; and instead of a spear, taught them to use a sarissa

He made his new-made citizens into Sarissaphoroi. Along with, we assume, some percentage of the original Spartaiates.

I don't neccesarily agree with this, I have no problem with your more straight forward reading and I can think of serious problems with the other. "Scholars' live to complicate these issues. Big Grin
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#18
Geez, I wish someone would write an article on Sellasia! This is a topic that is long overdue for examination!
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#19
The mention of Leukaspides is also interesting. It doesn't appear in Polybius, but Plutarch could be following Phylarchus, and so may provide a nice tidbit of information on the makeup of the phalanx of Antigonos Doson, who seems to have 2,000 chalkaspides/peltastai and 10,000 phalangites, who may be the leukaspides of the Plutarch narrative.

I'm also a good bit skeptical about a few aspects of the Plutarch narrative. The Philopoemen reforms seem legit for sure, but their nature seems exaggerated: gilding their shields and breastplates and helmets with gold and silver, wearing purple robes? Yeah, sure. Oh, and on the issue of narrow thureoi vs. the pelte, the former was probably no more than about 55cm wide, as opposed to the pelte, which was like 70-74cm wide. That's a good bit more coverage, even if you lost in height what you gained in width. But again, we've probably had the Achaian army exaggerated. Its highly doubtful it was so homogeneous before or after the reform.
Paul
USA
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#20
Quote:Plut. Cleom. X1:
After this, to begin with, Cleomenes himself placed his property in the common stock, as did Megistonoüs his step-father and every one of his friends besides; next, all the rest of the citizens did the same, and the land was parcelled out. Cleomenes also assigned a portion of land to each man who had been exiled by him, and promised to bring them all home after matters had become quiet. Then he filled up the body of citizens with the most promising of the free provincials, and thus raised a body of four thousand men-at arms, whom he taught to use a long pike, held in both hands, instead of a short spear, and to carry their shields by a strap instead of by a fixed handle. Next he devoted himself to the training of the young men and to the "agoge," or ancient discipline, most of the details of which Sphaerus, who was then in Sparta, helped him in arranging. And quickly was the proper system of bodily training and public messes resumed, a few out of necessity, but most with a willing spirit, subjecting themselves to the old Spartan regime with all its simplicity.

The key to Plutarch’s discussion is the “reformsâ€
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
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#21
Quote:The most sensible is that this (4,000) was now Cleomenes’ homoioi.

Clarify for me, if you would. Are you saying that the 4,000 are a combination of the old and new citizens, or that the 4,000 are his newly enfranchised and there were also othe old citizenry on top of this, whom may not have joined in his arms reform?
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#22
The implication is that the group of 4,000 homoioi were the total of both groups. The only good reason not to think so would be if we needed to get to 6,000 for Sellasia and didn't think the freed helots could be included in their number.
Paul
USA
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#23
Quote:The only good reason not to think so would be if we needed to get to 6,000 for Sellasia and didn't think the freed helots could be included in their number.

There is another reason, but I don't know what it is. I have seen the figure 5,000- so not due to the need for 2,000 more. If you're curious I can hunt down the refs.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#24
"5,000" Homioi is just an extrapolation by modern authors, I would suggest, based on the known fact that there were 4,000 "of military age" - allowing the usual 20% or so for males outside 'military age'.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#25
Quote:
Quote:The most sensible is that this (4,000) was now Cleomenes’ homoioi.

Clarify for me, if you would. Are you saying that the 4,000 are a combination of the old and new citizens, or that the 4,000 are his newly enfranchised and there were also othe old citizenry on top of this, whom may not have joined in his arms reform?

My reading of Plutarch’s text is that this was the citizen body – after Cleomenes had enacted his reforms. As always we are down to syntax and meaning. To me it is reasonably clear that those who could be deemed “citizensâ€
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
Reply
#26
...and I would entirely concur with Paralus' reading of the text.

It would be as well to remember that not all that long previously Pyrrhus of Epirus had met his end in Argos, after having been the first invader for centuries to attack the city of Sparta itself, saved only with Macedonian help, and in part by the courage of its women. In 244 BC the Aetolians, more or less at the zenith of their power had invaded Laconia, ravaged it irreparably ( which may have had an effect 20 years later when Kleomenes was distributing his new kleroi) and supposedly carried off some 50,000 Lakonians into slavery.The coast was subject to annual raids by the Illyrian pirates, the vikings of their age. Sparta had sunk to an all-time low of weakness.

Kleomenes was fortunate that circumstances and the Goddess Fortune favoured him and he was able to carry through the 'revolution/reforms' that had led the rump of the wealthy Homioi to murder Agis. He did so with a minimum of force - only 4 ephors and 10 of their followers were killed in the 'coup', and only 80 of their principal followers exiled, surely one of the most bloodless successful revolutions in History.

He was fortunate too ( or perhaps not, in hindsight !) that when the Aetolians finally withdrew from Arcadia in the face of growing Achaean power, they cunningly ceded the cities of Tegea,Mantinea, Orchomenus and Caphyae to Sparta, thus ensuring rivalry and emnity between Sparta, and Megalopolis and the growing Achaean league that ended on the battlefield of Sellasia.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
Reply
#27
Quote:In 244 BC the Aetolians, more or less at the zenith of their power had invaded Laconia, ravaged it irreparably ( which may have had an effect 20 years later when Kleomenes was distributing his new kleroi) and supposedly carried off some 50,000 Lakonians into slavery.

It is interesting that they came in ostensibly in support of the recently executed Agis IV's faction, then ravaged Perioic towns. I've always wondered whether they were in fact invited- then as Nabis would learn- set off on their own aggenda.

Quote:and only 80 of their principal followers exiled

But this must have been something like 15% of the total citizenry!
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#28
Returning to the point of Achaean armament, Polybius (XI, 16) in his description of the battle of Mantinea (207 BC) describes the Achaean phalanx armed with sarissa, so that is probably the long spear Pausanias was refering.
AKA Inaki
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#29
Inaki wrote:-
Quote:Returning to the point of Achaean armament, Polybius (XI, 16) in his description of the battle of Mantinea (207 BC) describes the Achaean phalanx armed with sarissa, so that is probably the long spear Pausanias was refering.
...thanks, Inaki, this re-inforces what we had earlier established...... Big Grin
Quote:In 208 B.C. Philopoemen re-organised the rest of the citizen infantry as Macedonian sarissaphroi. .The Achaean citizen infantry are hereafter referred to as 'peltophoroi' ( by Polybius). Philopoemen also reformed the Cavalry arm and re-organised it.

....and also.....
Quote:However, Plutarch is quite specific about Philopoemen's reforms in 209/208 B.C. - he tells us at length that Philopoemen creates a Macedonian-style phalanx, equipped with Macedonian pikes, and trained to fight close order.
...given the above, and that Polybius was writing of his own people's contemporary armament, there can hardly be any room for doubt, as I indicated earlier..... Smile
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#30
Paul
Do you have the references in which the Achaean citizen infantry are referred to as 'peltophoroi' in Polybius?
AKA Inaki
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