Congratulations, Germany

[Jona Lendering]

Dutch actors loved to go to Berlin and Pottsdam

To Potsdam? Pre-1990? Sure?

Yep, sure. Here is the biography of an actress who preferred the other half of the divided city. I remember her in a Goethe play in a theater near the Wall.

It would have been a strong statement about which tradition Germany wants NOT to stand in.

Yes, but should it? I mean, terrible things have happened in Germany, and Prussian militarism was certainly a factor. But Germany has atoned for that; you know that I think that Germany's Vergangenheitsbewältigung is the greatest success of the Bundesrepublik (I am aware that there are still skinheads and neonazis, but you get my point). We can take back things from that past, and there's nothing wrong in remembering the good things of nineteenth-century Germany, in which Berlin was so important.

Berlin was capital of Germany 1871-1945

It remained the capital of the GDR. Berlin has in fact always been the capital of Germany since 1871, having to share that honor with Bonn only from 1949 to 1991. (I had to look that up.)

[caiusbeerquitius]

It remained the capital of the GDR.

, Well, East Berlin did. :wink:
What I meant: It is not really the historical capital.

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

Cheez, What I thought was gonna be a nice tribute on a joyous occasion quickly became very ugly. I thought this kind of thing would be flagged or at least cautioned on old RAT. Everyone here has always been allowed their opinions to a degree but I'm a little embarrassed :oops: . BTW- my father-in-law was from Prussia and was a very fine man.
Sorry I fell for this one.

[caiusbeerquitius]

my father-in-law was from Prussia and was a very fine man.

So was one of my grandfathers. That doesn´t say a lot about prussian politics, though.

Plus, I don´t see where it´s ugly. It´s just different standpoints and different arguments. Would it be ugly if we talked about e.g. Alexander the Great? What´s the difference when talking about prussian emperors?

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

As far as I am concerned, I didn´t compare ... "the modern region Berlin-Brandenburg with historic Prussia "

We both know pretty well what you wanted to imply with your reply to Jonas words ...

because Berlin was made the capital of a reunited Germany

I don´t agree, since IMO not a lot of positive things ever came out of Prussia...

... you deliberately connected the current development in a region with it's people and the grave past, quite obviously. Everyone can see it there and from your further posts what you're up to.
And it's not the first time you used this forum to propagate your absurd cultural / political ideas and assessments about certain regions, cities and their people, which aren't based on facts but an ignorant, oversimplified and stereotypical world view. But hijacking a thread titled "congratulations, Germany" on that special day is even more poor.
You may think yourself very funny, clever or something by putting a smiley behind your words or arguing about semantics afterwards ("read carefully" ,IMO, "what I meant ...") and posting that embarassing propaganda crap tune, thinly disguised as historic information. - What a coincidence this happens right now, isn't it? - But you're not. You're plain insulting and derogatory.

If you want to share your nowadays political ideas with others, there's certainly places in the internet.

I thought this kind of thing would be flagged or at least cautioned on old RAT.

The RAT-rules are unfortunately quite useless if mods themselves break them ..


Anyway thanks all others for your contributions. Especially Randi for having served here.

[Jona Lendering]

I think too much is made of the nature of the exchange between Christian and me. For the record, we have met each other on several occasions and it is less than half a year ago that he was my host in the Bavarian town where he lives. I have not had the idea that he transgressed any rule when he argued that the Prussian legacy is too tainted to make/keep Berlin as capital, although I am aware that there is a (sometimes unpleasant) rivalry between Bavaria and Prussia, which is parallel to the case he makes. As it happens, I do not agree with Christian's thesis -I think that bygones are now bygones- but his is not an unusual or disingeneous point of view.

In fact, I think that exchanging arguments about the nature of German history constitutes something like "a nice tribute on a joyous occasion", as Andy phrased it. Too many joyous occasions have been taking hostage by people who present it as something that allows for only one interpretation. But history is a continuous debate, and the meaning of the past ought to be in flux. Asking questions and debating the answer is a better way to commemorate. I fondly remember the old exposition in the Reichstag, "Frage an die deutsche Geschichte" ("questions to the history of Germany").

[caiusbeerquitius]

your absurd cultural / political ideas and assessments about certain regions, cities and their people, which aren't based on facts but an ignorant, oversimplified and stereotypical world view.

Freedom of speech, it is. One of the values of our republic. I imagine you want old prussia back, and "Glanz and Gloria" instead of that, right?
Again, it seems to me that you simply don´t understand what I´m saying. So you start insulting me.

on that special day

Jeez, I hope you don´t sit at home and cry, now. Sorry.

You may think yourself very funny, clever or something...But you're not. You're plain insulting and derogatory.

No, I am not. But you are, it seems. :roll: But, honestly, I don´t care. I certainly won´t fire back here.

The RAT-rules are unfortunately quite useless if mods themselves break them ..

Now that is a severe accusation. Where exactly did I break the rules, please?

I think too much is made of the nature of the exchange between Christian and me.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Too many joyous occasions have been taking hostage by people who present it as something that allows for only one interpretation.

Again.

But history is a continuous debate, and the meaning of the past ought to be in flux. Asking questions and debating the answer is a better way to commemorate.

And again.

I´d even go so far as to say that not wanting to allow other opinions or trying to suppress discourse is a fascistoid mind-setting.

[Jona Lendering]

To give this debate a turn before it does actually get ugly, here is my take on the value of history, nothing less.

[Jeroen Pelgrom]

ok, everybody calm down and make this a nice & friendly debate. If not, i will close this one.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Jona, a nice article indeed. Did the Universities really fail? hmmm.. It´s hard to say at the university, since the folks are not finished studying. So one should perhaps start a poll among Geisteswissenschaftlern. I repeatedly tell my students so, but to really understand these things it seems necessary to have at least an idea of the development of Geschichtswissenschaften in the last 200 years. Mostly, there seems to be no time to bother the students with such unnecessary information.... *sigh*

Another fact which makes me think Berlin was a bad choice:
Berlin is a rather poor, and, alas, decentral city, with little industry, many social "Brennpunkten" etc. The fact that over the Länderfinanzausgleich Berlin received since 1995 40.338 million € (sic!) from the other states is a good sign for that. The countries paying are Baden-Württemberg (since 1950 65.092 million €), Bavaria (since 1950 20.985 million €) Hamburg (since 1950 23.082 €), Hessia (since 1950 53.636million €), and North-Rhine-Westfalia (since 1950 32.319 million €). All other states are "receivers". Imagine Naples being the capital of Italy. So basically, Berlin spent since 1995, i.e. in 13 years, two thirds of what Baden-Württemberg gave in money to the other states since 1950. Or: Alone in 2008 Berlin received 37,9% of the money which is there for all receivers. Per head this means that for a person living in Berlin the "givers" payed in 2008 921.07 €, in comparison for one in Brandenburg 247,73€, in Bremen 765,57€, in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern 325,66€, in Niedersachsen 40,50€, in North-Rhine-Westfalia 2,78€, in Rheinlnd-Pfalz 93,23 €, in Saarland 112,89€, in Saxony 278,18€, in Saxony-Anhalt 263,72€, in Schleswig-Holstein 62,91€, and in Thuringia 282,39€. Last year the mayor of Berlin asked for an additional 800 million, which was denied with an "enough is enough"... o0. The money that Berlin received was NOT used for the moving of the capital, which is payed for from a different pot. Most of the money given to Berlin is used to finance the "Bread- and Games" policy of the Socialist- and Social-Democratic political union gouverning the city (e.g. three opera houses o0). From an economic point of view, as well as out of security reasons the choice of Berlin as capital was utter nonsense, IMO. We just have to remember the time between 1918 and 1933 to see what can happen if a country´s government is situated in a place that is likely to have large-scale social unrest. (eg. Berlin- Neukölln, Mahrzahn, Kreuzberg). Economics: if it´s all about the concept of integration, we here have a good example of the opposite. It´s more like a tick on the integrated system.

[Tita Iuventia Martia]

Salvete omnes,
I do not want to discuse about the history / politic, because of both my English skill and German history skills, but I want to congratulate. IMO 9th November 1989 was really important day, because the boundaries between states has been opened after 28 years, The communism dictature fell, people from East Germany could visit their relations behind the wall without fear, East Germans become a free people and the democracy was established.


And, IMO, this great event is really important also for everybody, who has ever liv under the dictature and in the Communism totality. This event is important also for our nation, because we were also the satelit state of the Sovetian union. And also thanks the event in Berlin the Communism could fall also in my country without a masacre. On 17th November we will celebrate the velvet revolution (the event, when started the fall of Communism definitely). It was only 8 days after the fall of wall in Germany. Yes, the revolution in the satlite states started in Hungary and Poland, but the event in Berlin was the last impulse for our nation.

After the Velvet revolution the democracy was established and we become a free nation. And Mr. Vaclav Havel become our president.

regards :-) )

[caiusbeerquitius]

I think Germany in return should thank the Czech Republic, or, back then Chzechoslovakia, for the handling of the situation in the German embassy and on their borders in 1989. This was the event that really sparked the disintegration of the GDR.
So: Thanks!

[Jona Lendering]

Jona, a nice article indeed. Did the Universities really fail?

They have failed miserably. Ancient historians need to know a lot about classical languages, history of course, and archaeology. As a result, there is insufficient time to teach historical method; as a consequence, historians still repeat errors that have been logically refuted more than a century ago (think of that perennial canard that the Persian Wars were decisive for the birth of European civilization). Quality control is now, essentially, based on mutual criticism, not logic. And it fails. Of the fifty errors in my book on common errors, thirty-seven were made by people with a Ph.D.

If my correspondence is any guide (and it appears that it is the only source to find out which errors really are common), outdated knowledge recycled by academicians are a greater danger than the Von Dänikens of this world. The university is in need of reform, and the energy devoted to fight against pseudoscholarship ought to be devoted to a renaissance of the university.

I think Germany in return should thank the Czech Republic, or, back then Chzechoslovakia, for the handling of the situation in the German embassy and on their borders in 1989. This was the event that really sparked the disintegration of the GDR.

Yes, that is true.

[Tita Iuventia Martia]

I guess, that this handling of the situation was possible, because of the collapsing of Communism all around and also thanks Mr. Gorbatchov, who said: "It is your thing". And, naturaly, because we did not like Communism as well as the others and we wanted to help our Friends to be free people.

My aunt brought in to the German consulate some food for the people inside.

I remember, that also a lot of Communist policemen thought, that this year is the last for Commmunism. On 28th October (it is our nation festival) Mr. Havel was arrested by the STB (The Communism state secreet police) and he was supervised by the policeman in a policecar. And this policenan asked Mr. Havel: "Mr. Havel, what do you mean, when the Communism definitely fall?"...

regards :-) )

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

I imagine you want old prussia back, and "Glanz and Gloria" instead of that, right?

I don't. Outright ridiculous accusation. You're the one who from the start tied that Prussian thing - and impertinently still does - to the nowadays people like me, which is pretty much absurd, unfair and entirely out of place. You're very personal and by no means objective "observations", conclusions and/or assertions, which certainly don't make you a qualified expert as Jona thinks, about the place where I live are in majority plain wrong. I live here for over thirty years and wouldn't dare to claim such stereotypical nonsense about this or any other place I just visitied.

@Jona, it's not appropriate to make this an Prussian-Bavarian animosity, which is in broader terms pretty much overrated and as most Germans are concerned virtually non-existent. There is just no Prussia anymore, no continuity, however people by constructing oversimplified chains of causality like to be in denial about this. And certainly there's no such thing like German-Berlin pomposity. Actually Berlin and Brandenburg, reigned by the political left, are somewhat of the poorhouse of Germany with most people living on the dole, some districts literaly falling apart, while objectively on the opposite the most rich federal and, if you want to phrase it that way, "pompous" state is, wait for it ..Bavaria, it's regional capital Munich having the highest living standard of all Germany. Needlessly to say that their regional government is the most conservative in Germany.
So IF there's anything like historic continuity in that respect we're talking about, you'll find it where Christian Koepfer lives.
Anyways, nothing against Bavaria, but these stereotypical and ignorant implied identification of ancienct Prussians with nowadays people should be something of the past. Alas sometimes people with separatist political agenda use this old conflict to project their hatred towards an unified Germany for some irrational fear of conquering us the world again. It's actually pretty obvious if one doesn't refuse to see it.

I have not had the idea that he transgressed any rule

It's simple modern politics, disguised as a dispute about Prussia, strangely coinciding with the remembrance day when we were united.

IMO 9th November 1989 was really important day, because the boundaries between states has been opened after 28 years, The communism dictature fell, people from East Germany could visit their relations behind the wall without fear, East Germans become a free people and the democracy was established.

Yes, indeed, but lets not forget our Polish and Russian friends. Without their union Solidarno?? movement and the Russian Perestroika we hadn't got that far.