Kalkriese has nothing to do with the Teutoburg battles

[caiusbeerquitius]

I meant: LPA: What else besides Legio Prima Augusta? ^^

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I meant: LPA: What else besides Legio Prima Augusta? ^^

That's what I mean, is it actually LPA?

[caiusbeerquitius]

yes

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

L(OCvS) P(ERICvLvM) A(CIES)

The place of the dangerous battle-line.........

LPA

hehehehehehehe

M.VIB.M.

Probably the abbreviation LPA is a better one for Legio Prima Augusta than LIA .

Epigraphy is a science in itself...

[caiusbeerquitius]

[caiusbeerquitius]

Here´s also a refreshing new idea about the countermarks:
[url:33d71o2u]http://freenet-homepage.de/schindler.juergen/muenzen.html[/url]


There was also a chain-mail chest-hook found at Kalkriese, with the inscription

M. AIUS I FABRICI

Which means M. Aius from the first legion of the fabricii (Legio I often referred her name to Gaius Fabricius Luscinus, who fought Pyrrhus, Legio I lost that name only when she came into Augustus "posession" after he had defeated Marcus Antonius)

There is a lead plumb bob from Kalkriese with an "I" on it, and several other finds with either an "I" or a "P" on them...

A Cavalry unit from the campaingns 14f. is also attested for Kalkriese, the inscription of a scabbard-hook is "Domitii", referring to Gnaeus Domitius Ahenobarbus
(Georgia Franzius u. Rainer Wiegels, Beschläge einer Gladiusscheide und Teile eines cingulum aus Kalkriese, in: Germania, H. 1, 2000, S. 567 -607)


^^

[KET]

Very interesting topic. I do have one question... The Kalkriese site was, at the time, one of the only east-west routes in that region. Roman armies under leaders from Drusus to Tiberius campaigned in Germania for over a decade before and several years after. Many of these campaigns included close-run battles in narrows and ambushes in narrows and swamps. Could the "Teutorburg Narrows" actually be the site of more than one of these fights...? Of course that makes the lack of camps and other finds even more troubling. From what I can tell, nothing definitive proves it wasn't the Varus battle - just as nothing definitive ever proved it was. Anyone got a spare time machine laying around... :lol: Cheers.


Kevin Townsend

I have spent a great deal of time researching the battle. You can find my scribbles here: <!-- l <a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=28300">viewtopic.php?f=1&t=28300<!-- l

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I understood there was a camp found? Were these people writing fantasy too?

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

the inscription of a scabbard-hook is "Domitii"

What exactly was that scabbard-hook?

[Ron Andrea]

Reminds me of the Andy Warhol painting in which people see his (and their) name. How clearly incised are the lines on the metal/stone? Is there a picture of the original artifact?

[jho]

Salve caiustarquitius,

Which means M. Aius from the first legion of the fabricii (Legio I often referred her name to Gaius Fabricius Luscinus, who fought Pyrrhus, Legio I lost that name only when she came into Augustus "posession" after he had defeated Marcus Antonius)

Do you have a reference for the assertion that this legion often referred her name to Gaius Fabricius Luscinus?

I could neither find this in Ritterling nor could I find any inscriptions of this type in the usual online epigraphic databases (I must admit that I am not good at database searches). It would appear quite astonishing for an Imperial legion to refer back to a Republican hero more than 200 years oider, I would think.

Thank you!

[caiusbeerquitius]

A quick access is here, by Schoppe....
[url:bcqajfp3]http://kalkriese.blogspot.com/2007/01/einordnung-der-inschrift.html[/url]
However, I wouldn´t go so far as to use it as a proof, as he states...

[caiusbeerquitius]

Reminds me of the Andy Warhol painting in which people see his (and their) name. How clearly incised are the lines on the metal/stone? Is there a picture of the original artifact?

Not on the web. In the museum it is displayed with the inscription facing to the wall... ^^

[caiusbeerquitius]

I understood there was a camp found? Were these people writing fantasy too?

It is a bit complicated. The v-shaped trenches and the wall are identified by the excavators as being buildt by Germanics. There is no proof whatsoever for this hypothesis, though. The technology of the wall is certainly Roman, the hypothesis is that the Germanics had learned this way of constructing during their service a auxiliaries. However, no proof. Since there was only one single item of Germanic descent found at Kalkriese at all, we even might hypothesize Romans fighting Romans there, or Germanics fighting with Roman equipment, which they got after the Varus battle: with arguments just as valid as those used for the wall being buildt by the Germanics....

[caiusbeerquitius]

From what I can tell, nothing definitive proves it wasn't the Varus battle - just as nothing definitive ever proved it was. Anyone got a spare time machine laying around... Cheers.

This is right. But in general logic and in academic proceeding it is so that you should be able to proove what you propose. So it is up to the people saying "It CERTAINLY WAS the site of the clades variana" to proove their statements, not for the others to proove it wasn´t.

Could the "Teutorburg Narrows" actually be the site of more than one of these fights...?

That is what the pro-Kalkriese-faction turned to say, after it was found out how small the site of findings actually is. So that´s the current hypothesis.