Signifier and Optio 1st Century BC

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Lupus, is that yourself who I met with pierpaolo in 2008?

I quite agree with your idea, if I understand you, that the crest could be be a plume type that is
configured in such a way as to be deployed transversly. I have toyed with a design, utilizing what are often considered feather tubes
to accentuate this idea. I will draw it and send it to you, perhaps we are thinking along the same line?

[Crispvs]

I think that you probably could get a horsehair crest to drop into two tails, one to either side, if you were to divide it into two and then bind each part for an inch or two above the divide, before positioning it in the crest holder. Just a suggestion. I am sure there is sculptural evidence for what appears to be a divided horsehair crest. I will see if I can track it down.

Crispvs

[LvpvsRomanvs]

Well I think it would only just be a matter of parting it in the middle and splitting the horsehair so it hangs down on either side of the helmet.

[LvpvsRomanvs]

Lupus, is that yourself who I met with pierpaolo in 2008?

No, I'm just some random college student from the Midlands lol But I've been studying the Romans for quite a while now in my spare time. I've mostly come here to learn and share my opinions with people who share my interests.

[Crispvs]

"Well I think it would only just be a matter of parting it in the middle and splitting the horsehair so it hangs down on either side of the helmet."

If there was nothing to maintain each tail as a separate piece, how would you stop them from just flopping back together into a single tail as soon as the wearer started moving?

Crispvs

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

That is where my idea was going to come in.... :twisted:

[jkaler48]

The Parma was in use during Caesar's campaigns as he mentioned four Spanish Legions equipped with "targets" as shields.
Later iconography often shows a curved oval shield slung over the back for Signifiers. A larger shield would make good tactical sense for a Standard bearer at the century level where the possibly of missile and hand to hand combat is greater than say at the Legion Headquarters. The curved oval shield is a good compromise between defensive capability and ease of carrying slung on the back.

[RKotern]

I found interesting pictures by Graham Sumner (caesar's centurion)

[Crispvs]

All of these pictures are, of course modern reconstructions, rather than contemporary pictures of the real thing, so you need to be careful when looking for evidence in modern reconstructions.

That said, all of the pictures you have posted up are well informed reconstructions. Graham Sumner's picture of Pulo and Vorenus, the left hand figure is modelled on the stele of Minucius Lorianus, which I mentioned in my list of sculptural evidence above, and which you should find on the Romanarmy.com imagebase. The right hand figure wears an amalgam of possible equipment. The shield appears to be modelled on the shields form the Altar of Domitius Ahenobarbus. The sword is about right for the period, being somewhat longed than first century AD types and the helmet is a Gallic Agen type helmet, which is not conclusively known to have been used by the Romans but they certainly encountered it in Gaul during Caesar's Gallic campaigns and there are strong indications that the Imperial Gallic type Roman helmets of the first century AD had their origins in helmets like this, so it does seem reasonable to speculate that some Roman soldiers may well have worn helmets captured in Gaul or made for them by Gallic armourers after Caesar had started campaigning in Gaul. I cannot see his body armour well but is looks as if it is supposed to be a garment to cover his armour, to protect it from the elements and it appears to be based on a garment apparently being worn by the first century AD aquilifer Cn. Musius. Much of this appears also to apply to the second picture, which reconstructs Minucius with his attested belt and dagger and adds a subarmalis with pteruges, mail, greave (I am not sure what source Sumner has used for these), a shield like the one mentioned above and an Agen type helmet. Graham obviously likes the Agen type helmets as he has used them in both reconstructions. It would be just as correct (if not more) to use a tinned or silvered Montifortino type helmet.

Crispvs

[Graham Sumner]

Hi

Paul is basically correct and in also pointing out that you should check out the original sources first. Just to tidy up some loose edges from his post, the top left figure is indeed based on the tombstone of M. Lorarius which also forms the basis for the bottom reconstruction. The shield designs are based on the early Augustan monument built in honour of Caesar in Narbonne. The helmet, greaves and body armour are based on sculpture found at Aquileia dating from the time of Caesar. The armour in the top version is interpreted as linen perhaps covered with leather while the lower version shows the more conventional view in mail over a subarmalis. One thing to point out, the sculpture shows the indents on the shoulder doubling in the opposite way to most representations. This is shown on the top reconstruction but I kept the more conventional view in the lower.

Both of these monuments and another from Caieta appear to show Agen-Port type helmets with Roman equipment. Also of interest is that the Aquileia relief appears to show a padded subarmalis extending up from beneath the body armour to encircle the neck and an Agen-Port helmet with the crest depicted.

Of course as you can see even in my re-constructions these monuments are open to interpretation. Claudio Antonucci in his book 'L'Esercito di Cesare 54-44a.C' Milan 1996. shows the same figure as my 'Vorenus' in leather armour and both this figure and another reconstruction of his showing a Tribune were later copied by the Italian artist G. Rava in his reconstruction which appears earlier in this thread posted by LupusRomanus and in another reconstruction of his showing Caesar and his officers.

Antonucci shows many re-constructions of Caesarian period officers and soldiers, most of which do not fall into the category of accepted re-constructions, although one can argue that they do follow literary and sculptural sources if not archaeological ones or those by modern re-enactors.

Graham.

[RKotern]

Johnny painted new stuff.

He's similar to caesar's legionary
but
Why he has hexagonal shield.
Sorry my bad english

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Now that is close to what I have been thinking.......nice work to Johnny again!

[LvpvsRomanvs]

Bloody good drawing. I've never seen a curved hexagonal shield before =S is the shield an interpretation or have there been finds like this? To my knowledge the only hexagonal shields were flat?

[Graham Sumner]

Now that is close to what I have been thinking.......nice work to Johnny again!

How quick you forget Byron! Look at ROMAN MILITARY DRESS plate 10.

Why he has hexagonal shield.

The shield is based on an Etruscan sarcophagus of Tuscania according to D'Amato. See also Plate 2 of Arms and Armour of the Imperial Roman Soldier!

Graham.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Now that is close to what I have been thinking.......nice work to Johnny again!

How quick you forget Byron! Look at ROMAN MILITARY DRESS plate 10.


Graham.

Hmmmmm Nice castle........hmmmmmm Nice castle...........Hmmmmm Nice Castle......... :oops: :lol:

Sorry, I don't have the book on me right now, but yes, it does look familiar.
Mind you, I have my own idea for a crest, unfortunately the montefortino I commissioned has never materialized to
make the attempt at making the crest......