Pugio frog help (picture identity and period)

[PhilusEstilius]

Paolo.

I do understand that a few have been found in association with weapons, however that is only a few as compared to the amount that have been found otherwise. Then as you also point out some are of a delicate nature and have become damaged or lost, it can also be said that as many are so small and fragile they could never have held the weight of a sword.

Then as I have also said hundreds of them are found all around the areas outside and inside of forts, and these are not connected with anything to do with battle situations.
I would like to see the evidence of them connected to the weapons or suspension systems used for such purpose then I might consider that yes they have a use other than clothing.

[Tim Edwards]

I would like to see the evidence of them connected to the weapons or suspension systems used for such purpose then I might consider that yes they have a use other than clothing

Three places where similar fittings have been found in close association with swords and belts:

Vindonissa (with belt plates wrapped around a sword scabbard), Mainz (with belt set and sword) and Verdun (with complete burial assemblage).

I see this suspension system as continuity from the LPRIA practice of using studded rings for sword suspension. These pattern suspension rings are often (in my view erroneously) used by reenactors for satchel fastenings, again with no evidence for this use.

In no case that I know of has the original leathering survived, so we are unlikely to find conclusive proof. Similarly, I do not know of any hinged pugio frogs with the pugio still attached by leather.

Again, I advise reading J P Wild's article on these finds.

Is there any evidence you have to suggest that these items were for clothing?

[PhilusEstilius]

Tim

I would say that the only evidence that is being put forward at all, is that button loop fasteners have been found in association with swords with no evidence at all of them being used to suspend the sword.
Therefore who ever is putting forward the idea that they were used for sword suspension can only be considered as their assumption, then again you have only given three such cases (there may be others of course) but in other situations unrelated to swords there have been several hundreds found.

[Tim Edwards]

Brian,

Have you ever thought about going into politics?!!? :wink:

There are similarly thousands of belt plates out there, how many have ever been found as sets?- Not many!!

I am actually quite open minded, so I ask again:
Is there any evidence you have to suggest that these items were for clothing?

[PhilusEstilius]

Tim.

The only political answer that can be given is what evidence is there that button loop fasteners were ever used to carry swords. for all we keep hearing is that a few have been found along with swords and other artifacts but nothing to substantiate this assumption.
I have in another topic mentioned that there are not only coins that show Emperors wearing cloaks with what could be large button loop fasteners, but also soldiers showing smaller type button loop fasteners holding their garments together. I can't remember now if it was yourself or Peroni who posted the picture of such a soldier showing these things.

[Crispvs]

Brian,

Can you cite evidence of even a single skeleton with one or more of these items lying on (or in) its chest, which would create the definite association with clothing comparable with that which you are demanding for association with weapons? If not, then Tim's three pieces of evidence outweigh all of the other examples you might care to cite put together, at the same time without discounting the possibility that these items may have served multiple purposes.

Crispvs

[PhilusEstilius]

Crispvs.

I'm not sure if I have the name right but is it the "Camomile Street Soldier" who has two of these showing on his mail protection cloak.
There is also an interesting feature of these button loop fasteners that would bring into question the use for sword suspension, it has to do with there fixing rings or triangles which are not fixed at the centre of the disc.

Therefore the one that Paolo has shown and also the ones I have shown are in the region of 30mm diameter there abouts, so if we have a belt of that width one would have to cut a slot of around 15mm to get the ring to go thro' the belt.
However to have the disc central on a belt one would only have about 6 to 7mm of leather supporting a sword, for as mentioned no button loop fastener has it's ring at the centre of the disc in fact with some the suspension rings are even closer to the edge of the disc.

[Peroni]

if we have a belt of that width one would have to cut a slot of around 15mm to get the ring to go thro' the belt.

Not if the button goes through a metal ring/loop brian. Button and loop fasteners are a very old form of fastening. Many examples in Celtic contexts survive.

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/showcat.php?cat=141

The fasteners seen on the cloak may also have been of this type...
http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/showcat.php?cat=182

[Crispvs]

I am afraid that even the Camomile Street soldier cannot be cited as conclusive evidence of these items being clothing fasteners. As was pointed out recently by Tarbicus in another thread, the two discs depicted overlap both sides of the cloak's front split, making them more likely to be broaches, as somthing being used as a button would appear either on one side or the other, but not both sides.
There is also nothing on the sculpture to demonstrate what the back of each disc would have looked like, so there is no way to show that what was on the backs was anything other than a pin of some sort, which is what seems most likely, given their position.

You make an interesting point about the positioning of the shanks on the discs, but I don't see that this precludes the use of at least some of them as sword suspension devices (which there is, after all, compelling evidence for and the Vindonissa example at least has its shank positioned fairly centrally). As to the small amount of leather left by some of the more extreme examples, there is no reason I can see why a belt might not have been made in two layers stitched together. Two layers of goat skin, for example, stitched together would be quite strong and I think would be capable of supporting that weight.

As I said though, I don't see necessarily that they were all for the same purpose and these ones with the shanks close to the edge may have been for something else. I would just like to see something which can stand as concrete evidence for them being in any way associated with clothing. The modern name is pointless as it is not what the ancients called them, and the Camomile Street soldier has been called into serious doubt. So for an identification as a clothing item we are left needing to see a body associated which a button/loop in a suitable position, a button/loop in the contents of a cremation urn or a piece of preserved cloth with one still attached to it. I am afraid that those are about the only things which will swing it for you. Assuming an absent cloak to once have been present to justify the attested presence of a button/loop is really nothing more than wishfull thinking.

Crispvs

[Peroni]

Crispvs, I seem to recall a fragment of mail with one of these fasteners attached to it. I'll see if I can find it again...

[Doc]

Does anyone have a picture of the Vindonissa "button/loop".

Does the "button/loop" from Vindonissa happen to be the one shown in Miks?

[Crispvs]

It's the item on the lower right (front and back views)
The other items are the remains of a small hinged buckle and five belt plates/appliques.


This image is from Dreschler-Erb's article in 'Arma'

Crispvs

[Doc]

Thanks for the pic.

[PhilusEstilius]

Crispvs.

Where you say that on the Camomile street soldier the fasteners cannot be button loop because the disc covers both sides of the garment opening, please explain why that cannot be and also why it should be on one side or the other.

Then can you also explain how if we have no way of knowing what the back of each button looks like, just how can it be assumed to be a pin for the buttons shown there appear to be about 10mm diameter so where exactly is this suggested pin attached to both on the button and the material. In fact on a button that size just where would the hinge plate and catch plate for the pin be.
I think that some of the button loop fasteners that Adrian has shown should explain just how the button disc does appear on both sides of a garment join, that is if one can understand just how they were fitted to material.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I was thinking the same with my antler tips and horn fasteners. The stretch has the horn in the middle of the opening more or less.