Seeing the Nymphs Naked?

[Kegluneq]

Some of the lines seem literal, like marching in a triumphal procession, while others seem more metaphorical, such as seeing the nymphs naked. Seeing the nymphs sounds like some religious ceremony, like visiting a nymphaeum or sacred spring, to me. I wonder what a "seat of peace" might be? Simply living to be discharged?

There seems to be a chronological progression of sorts. Starting with the events of battle, then the 'seat of peace', then the Triumph, the wealth of retirement, and seeing the Nymphs naked. Assuming the nude-Nymph-viewing happened during his retirement (free to enjoy marriage/high class brothels after retirement?), then the 'seat of peace' event would have taken place between the battle and the procession. Trajan is shown seated on Trajan's Column receiving the surrender of the Dacians, perhaps this honour was extended to the primi ordines as well? Romans notoriously didn't overly value peace, especially from a military point of view, so it would make more sense to boast of a key role in a negotiated surrender than an inactive retirement.

[Statius]

Thanks Nathan - whoever this chap was he sounds as if he would have been fun to share a jug of wine or two with!

I dunno, I'd want to know exactly what he did with those Dacian corpses first...

True but I'd be more inclined to find out what he got up to with the Naked Nymphs as a first conversation point :wink:

[john m roberts]

Romans had literal chairs of office like the curule chair, so maybe the "seat of peace" means he held a civilian magistracy, surely a fitting honor for a retired centurion of distinction. As for the naked nymphs, well, that's just sort of an all-around good thing, isn't it?

[Lyceum]

This reminds me of all those studies on nympholepsy I had to read years ago, although they were all on the Greek side, obviously.

Honestly don't fully understand Nymphs in Roman culture. Sometimes they're pure Greek borrowings (from cult or literary constructs), Sometimes they're a good mix, sometimes the word is used to describe a native Italic element.

The most famous citation would obviously be Numa and his "girlfriend" (as Juvenal disparagingly calls her) in Livy. I think in general nymphs were held to be almost tutelary in their actions and tied to local places.

Given that this guy did well on the cursus we can assume he was from a halfway educated background and its probably an allusion about going mad for beauty or such like.

[M. Demetrius]

Could "seeing the nymphs naked" be a lofty metaphor for having lived long times in the wild, and seen Nature in many of its various visual/sensory impressions? Not as romantic, as some folks, I guess. Nymphs were said to be nature spirits, usually depicted as lovely females, who were tied to specific locales...river nypmhs, forest, mountain, meadow, whatever. They were said to be able to do you good or ill, at their choice, and some apparently were said to have direct interactions with certain people.

I don't think I really believe in nymphs, though, not as usually portrayed.

[S. Marcer]

The last sentence of this gravestone, and the possible interpretation, is discussed in pp. 85-86 in the article: TERMALISMO Y RELIGIÓN La sacralización del agua termal en la Península Ibérica y el norte de Africa en el mundo antiguo (in Spanish) of Francisco Diez De Velasco.

This is the rusty translation for the part in the article that discuss the inscription (please forgive my errors but Spanish is not my mother language and please correct my mistakes):


- The greatest problem with this inscription of the “miles gloriosus” is in the last line, and the “curiositas” (v., for example Le Glay 1983, 47) […] can be explained in several ways.
The editor (?) present the hypothesis that the expression "seeing the nymphs naked" could be refer to a premonitory dream of healing. Balland, that has dedicated an article to this matter, doubt and say that "we don't have any documentation that these nymphs (Aquae Flavaniae) were healthy", defending an approximation with three verses of Catullo (64, 16-18) that would point out the desire of heroisation of the soldier ( after having acquired all the success that he have looked-for himself in life, he finally imagined himself almost touching the life of the supernatural beings). The dossier on the thermal cults of Aquae Flavianae is very rich […] The fact that the tombstone has appeared in the thermal pool was not casual and we think that who dedicate the tombstone has finished the inscription quoting the Nymphs not to mark an arrival to happiness, but on the contrary since it was convenient in that particular place were the tombstone would have been exhibited. - p.85

[Kegluneq]

Oh dear, that is rather sombre. The Nymphs presumably would only get naked in private, and the soldier could only 'see' them in the form of an epitaph in their private area...

May the earth rest lightly on his bones indeed. >_>

[D B Campbell]

There's quite a bibliography on nymphs! The philologist James Adams has suggested a link between the nymphs of AE 1928, 37 (Campbell's Rule #42: All inscriptions should be cited by AE, ILS or RIB number, if humanly possible) and those of Catullus, Carmen 64 -- the main point is to demonstrate that legionary centurions were often cultured chappies who knew their poetry.

[Vindex]

... the main point is to demonstrate that legionary centurions were often cultured chappies who knew their poetry.

Hmm; think I prefer the image of him revelling in the Dacian dead!

[Decimus Brutius Varus]

Hmm; think I prefer the image of him revelling in the Dacian dead!

Second that!

[Nathan Ross]

I prefer the image of him revelling in the Dacian dead!

revelling in the Dacian dead? :woot:

"...we think that who dedicate the tombstone has finished the inscription quoting the Nymphs not to mark an arrival to happiness, but on the contrary since it was convenient in that particular place were the tombstone would have been exhibited..."

Hmm - but it seems to me that all the other things on the list are desirable outcomes or proud achievements. So if the last line does refer to the afterlife, then surely it too would be a happy state - 'by the time you read this, stranger, I'll have seen the nymphs naked!' Which as visions of the afterlife go, isn't altogether bad...

[Titus Manlius Verus]

the main point is to demonstrate that legionary centurions were often cultured chappies who knew their poetry.

Doubtful. I believe it safe to presume that most centurions were literate just to the point of fulfilling their duties. However, it appears that this centurion may have been an exception and was a lover of poetry-and the disembowelment of Dacians... :dizzy:

This has to be one of only a few hand fulls of gravestones belinging to a primus pilus. Do any other centurion gravestones resemble this one?

[mcbishop]

I believe it safe to presume that most centurions were literate just to the point of fulfilling their duties.

It would be interesting to know precisely how a statement like that could be quantified! Looks to me like a nascent factoid ;-)

Mike Bishop

[Nathan Ross]

legionary centurions were often cultured chappies who knew their poetry.

There's the line in Martial (11.3) about 'the stiff centurion in the Getic frosts' reading his poetry (sed meus in Geticis ad Martia signa pruinis / a rigido teritur centurione liber), but this may have been another of Martial's little jokes...

most centurions were literate just to the point of fulfilling their duties.

There were all sorts of centurions - many of them directly commissioned from the equestrians and therefore educated men, others who spent their whole careers in peacetime, and so on. So not all of them were the barking hobnailed drill-sergeants of popular imagination!

This has to be one of only a few hand fulls of gravestones belinging to a primus pilus. Do any other centurion gravestones resemble this one?

A quick search on the epigraphic databank brings up 140 inscriptions to primipilares, and a more careful search would probably find more. But I've never seen another quite like this one!

[Lyceum]

legionary centurions were often cultured chappies who knew their poetry.

There's the line in Martial (11.3) about 'the stiff centurion in the Getic frosts' reading his poetry (sed meus in Geticis ad Martia signa pruinis / a rigido teritur centurione liber), but this may have been another of Martial's little jokes...

most centurions were literate just to the point of fulfilling their duties.

There were all sorts of centurions - many of them directly commissioned from the equestrians and therefore educated men, others who spent their whole careers in peacetime, and so on. So not all of them were the barking hobnailed drill-sergeants of popular imagination!

This has to be one of only a few hand fulls of gravestones belinging to a primus pilus. Do any other centurion gravestones resemble this one?

A quick search on the epigraphic databank brings up 140 inscriptions to primipilares, and a more careful search would probably find more. But I've never seen another quite like this one!

You're right in that the makeup of Centurions was quite varied and that we can in no way assume illiteracy. I mean..not even slightly.

Those lines most likely refer to recitation by the way, not plain reading (as every study on ancient literacy shows; it was a tiered process). In order words, don't take it to having difficulties in reading (which we know the basic school systems did quite well at teaching) but on reading poetry. A wholly different affair dependent on a) practice and b) almost always required participation in the higher echelons of schooling, rhetoric, composition etc and would be limited to the wealthy.