Opinons on Needlefelt battle?

[G M Trajanus]

Neuraleanus says:

I'm not yet at the state where I can call anything to do with needlefelt reenactment.

Marius replies:

What would be the closest thing to actual battle that you would suggest Titus, that would not maim or injure participants who actually want to fight.
Remember that the Roman Army was created and maintained for one thing only (in the end), and that was to fight. Everything else was ONLY in support of the ability to fight and win battles. Using live steel or rudis cannot accomplish, in any way, a feeling of how the Romans did it without injuring someone.
Of course the battles at Lafe became melee's. There were not enough soldiers to prevent flanking and not enough time to train to fight properly in a shield line as the Romans did. Next year will be much better.

Marius

[Neuraleanus]

What would be the closest thing to actual battle that you would suggest Titus, that would not maim or injure participants who actually want to fight.

I'm not convinced that what you desire is possible and to remain safe. Needlefelt battle may certainly be done better. More training with more milites will of course help. I fear that the legal environment that we have in the USA will one day put a halt to all the fun. I know that everyone is required to sign a waiver, but I'm not sure that would mean anything in court.

[Thiudareiks Flavius]

I've always wondered why it is that American re-enactment groups seem to tend towards SCA-style rattan and these foam and needlefelt weapons, while UK and Aussie groups have been using blunted steel for decades.

Is it just that there's more danger of someone getting sued in the US? I'm sure it can't simply be that Americans are big pansy girls who are scared of getting hurt (though they do play their 'football' armoured up like main battle tanks, so who knows ...) 8)

But seriously folks, why not just use steel weapons and pulled blows like the rest of the (manly) re-enactment world? Why the wuss-weapons?

[Neuraleanus]

Is it just that there's more danger of someone getting sued in the US?

There is at least the perception of there being more lawsuits here in the USA. Lawyers seem to come out the woodwork.

why not just use steel weapons and pulled blows

To my understanding, it is one of the goals of needlefelt combat that pulled blows are not required. The guys organizing Lafe consider pulled blows, or any kind of choreography, pansy. One problem with needlefelt is that when you're wearing armour like segmentata you'll likely to not feel much from a blow. The groups advocating needlefelt are discussing many methods such as colored caulk to mark impacts. It could get a bit like paintball. Personally, I see nothing wrong with choreographed fighting. I've seen it done quite believably. Then again, Lafe is a closed event, it's not open to the public. What would be the point of a show of choregraphed fighting when there's no audience? I'm not sure that anyone can make then claim that needlefelt battle is experimental archeology.

[Marsinius]

1. Now I did not see all the needlefelt action, but on at least one occasion the Romans ran out of the fort after the Celts with needlefelt swords in hand and the battle quickly degenerated wild melee of needle felt bashing. All discipline was quickly lost. Now normally when the Romans got together they marched in fine formation. It seemed that when the needlefelt came out, so did any sense of reenactment authenticity. Maybe this was just an isolated observation.

Response: I was a centurion with half the legionaries at Ft. Lafe. You simply saw an isolated and disastrous incident. What you didn't see was the patrol which went out the next day with good order and which met the Celts in shield wall formation with great results. Nor did you see the two forays of Romans led by the Primus Pilus in wedge formation from the fort.

It is a danger to comment when you haven't seen everything or even a majority of the events. What I love about the needlefelt isn't the fighting - it's the historical living history I can do. As soon as I led my vexillation out of the fort we were in deadly peril. In pre-needlefelt days, I would have simply gone on a hike, but with the needlefelt I had to think like a centurion to protect my men and fulfill my orders. IT BRINGS REALISM TO THE HISTORY. The historical accuracy is paramount to me. I submit that it is ridiculous to dress up like a Roman legionary and then act as if we are on a picnic. Needlefelt, whether the Celts attack brings the history I've studied and the kit I've worked so hard on together.

As to safety, no one is against it, but it becomes like the US government. You can regulate something to death, to the point it becomes a burden. Be careful, wear eye protection as mandated and train to become a better soldier. A trained soldier is a more careful soldier.

Centurio Marsinius
LEGXXII PR
Cincinnati

[/i]

[G M Trajanus]

Thiudareiks Flavius says:

I've always wondered why it is that American re-enactment groups seem to tend towards SCA-style rattan and these foam and needlefelt weapons, while UK and Aussie groups have been using blunted steel for decades.

Marius Replies:

Flavius you really must learn to differentiate between styles of fighting as SCA combat has no bearing on either foam or needlefelt combat. In SCA fighting you do get and give a REAL beating with rattan with no "pulled" blows. That style requires massive padding rendering any realistic reenactment uniform a lost cause.

Thiudareiks Flavius says:

I'm sure it can't simply be that Americans are big pansy girls who are scared of getting hurt.

Marius Replies:

I assure you there were no pansy's At the Lafe event who actually fought in any of the needlefelt battles. There were enough injuries to go around
because we could actually fight without the true "pansyness" of having to
"pull" blows.

Thiudareiks Flavius says:

But seriously folks, why not just use steel weapons and pulled blows like the rest of the (manly) re-enactment world? Why the wuss-weapons?

Marius Replies:

This must be a joke Flavius. We had a man at Lafe who attended the Battle of Hastings in England where there were four thousand participants using live steel. No wuss weapons there where the "Battle"quickly degenerated into men standing around going through the motions of combat like marionettes and getting no feel for real combat. In Needlefelt we actually attacked each other viciously, continually and without mercy.
In other words, just like the Romans did without maiming or serious injury. Pulled blows, manly??
The words I wish I could use to reply properly to that statement.

Marius

[richsc]

I think taking needlefelt heads is more realistic than needlefelt flailing about


I haven't seen a needlefelt fight, but choreography (can be with needlefelt or steel) is more what the audiences want to see. Fighting without the reality of dying is just so much nerf nonsense, so you have to choreograph in the idea of dying, rather like the gladiators do. I think it would be much better to put on fencing masks and use wooden swords and have a referee keeping point score. Otherwise you're just whacking.

We gave a lecture at Univ of Md. Balt. Campus this weekend, and they wanted to do Romans vs. Greeks. Looks just like all the needlefelt battle photos I've seen, only more colorful (neon nerf swords and spears).

[Thiudareiks Flavius]

I'll try to put more smilies in this post, in case anyone mistakes me for being entirely serious ... D D D D

Flavius you really must learn to differentiate between styles of fighting as SCA combat has no bearing on either foam or needlefelt combat. In SCA fighting you do get and give a REAL beating with rattan with no "pulled" blows. That style requires massive padding rendering any realistic reenactment uniform a lost cause.

I was simply referring to the use of non-steel weapons in both styles of fighting; I'm under no illusions that they are the same in other respects. And I've had enough experience of SCA fighting to know how totally unrealistic it is.

I assure you there were no pansy's At the Lafe event who actually fought in any of the needlefelt battles. There were enough injuries to go around because we could actually fight without the true "pansyness" of having to "pull" blows.

It doesn't sound all that safe then ...

This must be a joke Flavius. We had a man at Lafe who attended the Battle of Hastings in England where there were four thousand participants using live steel. No wuss weapons there where the "Battle"quickly degenerated into men standing around going through the motions of combat like marionettes and getting no feel for real combat.

I've never fought in the UK, but I've fought UK re-enactors. None of them went 'through the motions of combat like marionettes and getting no feel for real combat', and if they had, they would have been on the ground pretty smartly. The only steel fighters I know who fight like that are people who haven't been trained properly and haven't learned how to deliver fast blows pulled at the last second.

Pulled blows, manly??
The words I wish I could use to reply properly to that statement.

Hey, each to their own. Personally, give me a real steel sword and some good pre-fight training in using it to deliver quick but safe blows any day.

But my question still stands: there seems to be a US vs the Rest of the World division on using these weapons as opposed to steel - why so?

[Chuck Russell]

i fight w/ steel in the US. using The Vikings UK/NA system. once trained it is VERY effective and has 2 styles. 1 for recreation show and 1 for active battle like people do in LARP or SCA. but there ARE rules. only saftey issues are helmet and leather covered gloves and no head shots. all thrusts, pairies and attackes are aimed at certain areas and you are trained trained trained. its very fun

i would love it if someone made a 2mm edged gladius with the tip about the size of ones thumb.

[url:1hyjuf2b]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy/Events/Norman/ConroiFitzOsbern06.htm[/url] you can see some of the faster paisted one on one battles here as well as some open melees

[Neuraleanus]

once trained it is VERY effective and has 2 styles. 1 for recreation show and 1 for active battle like people do in LARP or SCA. but there ARE rules

What is the training like?

[Chuck Russell]

http://www.vikingsna.org/ click on combat. there are several step by step ideas on how to train and what to do whens. very informative

we did several one on one slow motion drills with a certifed trainer. then we did a quicker paced one infront of the main instructor.

all in all this is supposed to be fun and safe. they both can be done, really they can!

[Neuraleanus]

It looks quite interesting. I take it that your fighting is highly structured. Can you elaborate a bit on the qualifications an individual is required to have prior to being allowed to fight? I wonder whether a similar scheme could be applied to roman combat.

[Thiudareiks Flavius]

What is the training like?

If it's done properly, the best answers are 'extensive', 'disciplined' and 'long'. Unfortunately, at larger events, you get more people who are undertrained and have to fight slowly if they are to stay safe fighters. That's probably why you see more of the slow-mo 'marionette' fighting at big events like Hastings.

I learned to fight with Steve Hand, who now tours the world lecturing on and demonstrating historical medieval swordplay and is the co-author with Paul Wagner of Medieval Sword and Shield:The Combat System of Royal Armouries MS I.33. This was about 20 years ago, so our fighting techniques were less accurate back then, but the discipline of training was always paramount.

In our combat, helmets and armoured gloves were compulsory and other armour and padding was encouraged. Blows to the hands or groin or any stabs to the face were not allowed, but head blows were legal.

A new fighter spent most of their early training sessions drilling to learn the main blocks and parries with a wooden baton until they became second nature. Then they went through a long period of training-sparring using wooden batons until they were judged safe enough to use metal weapons in closely supervised sparring with one of the more experienced members. The emphasis was on building up speed and accuracy while maintaining control of the strength of blows. Only then did they get to fight other members and, eventually, to help train newbies.

Practice was at least weekly and a fighter who had gained metal weapons competence but had then missed too many training sessions had to go back to using wooden batons until their skill and speed levels came back up to a suitably safe standard.

As a result of all this I never sustained more than a few bruises in seven years of regular fighting and never injured anyone. Our group was geographically isolated, so it was some years before I attended a major inter-group event. When I did, I quickly realised how useful this training discipline was. I wasn't the best fighter in my own group by a long chalk, but I kicked a reasonable degree of butt against fighters who put less emphasis on extensive speed and safety training.

[rusty myers]

As the other Centurion, I agree with Marsinius, our patrol the first day was essentially a nature hike, as we knew no celts were there, as we had no needlefelts with us. Oh we played the game, inspected potential ambush spots, cleared roundhouses, checked their camp, but in the end we knew it was a nature walk. I was a bit jealous that they got to go out on needlefelt day and experience the woods fight.

As to the people leaving the fort and fighting, it just shows us what we need to learn, there was an ambush squad moving up on the right, we just did not arrive in time, as we had no cornu then... that will not happen again. And in reality, it was largely numbers. A shield wall of 8 can be easily flanked and becomes melee combat pretty quickly. A shield wall of 80... a little more impressive.

we learned a lot from it, and will bebetter next year because of it.

This is one reason I advocated the needlefelt be "in play" all weekend. To recreate that sense of peril, of keeping your needlefelt sword near, of having a partner to back you up, of trusting no celt, of guard duty MEANING something.

It was MUCH more re-enacting than most show up/form up/talk up events that we get relegated to. As to Farby swords... well plenty of show up/form up/talk ups for you guys too, and I will happily fall in with you and not degrade what you are trying to do... I just ask that you return the favor... Lafe allowed us the thrill of manning a small frontier fort, while truly not knowing what was to happen. who to trust, or what to expect. It was great. It is not for everyone. In the future trained units will be better able to play. And we need to standardize those drill commands...

Lafe was a sort of a Roman Tactical event. The prettiest armor did not mean much if it did not function. Opened our eyes and gave us a chance to Experience the world of a frontier Roman Soldier. If that is not re-enacting...

WHAT IS???

[Chuck Russell]

thats cool. sometimes you cant truely understand book sense unless you try it in the real world. i would love to come to Lafe one time. too bad you guys are so far from home!