Greek Horses

[manda]

Really? Thats excellent news! I guess Wikipedia needs to be updated then. Its unfortunate the Greek government is not doing anything to help preserve one of its breeds.

Those poor things! I absolutely abhor neglect and abuse of animals. But I am glad the survivors found safe homes to go to.

[conon394]

Athens had good finaces in classical era and could also aford "war horses".
But it seems that not always since the Beotian cavlary became more formidable than the Attic cavalry.

I’m not sure horse size is the only explanation possible. The Boeotian cavalry of the late 5th and certainly the 4th century seems to have depended for much of it improvement on the development and integration of good hamippoi.

I could be wrong but I think Xenphon makes that point explicitly when talking about the battle of Mantinea. The Athenian victory in the preceding day’s cavalry skirmish is also falls into place; the Boeotian cavalry was trying a surprise raid and might well have left the hamippoi behind. It is also worth considering the political aspect at to about the mid 4th century BC, due to it association with the thirty tyrants. At the lowest ebb the Athenians seem to have been happy to seen the Cavalry off with Agesilaus and hope none returned. Given that state of affairs the It’s no wonder the units performance may have slipped.

Manda

How much shorter are you thinking? And average range of maybe 5’5â€

[manda]

Hello Paul

I was actually thinking of maybe a little shorter even, something like 5'4 etc. But again I'd need to find sources for the height factor.

But people generally are taller now, then what they were in previous generations going back. Again I'm not sure as to the exact estimates of the level of height increase.

But I would love to see some information on human heights during Ancient Greece.

[conon394]

Hello Paul

I was actually thinking of maybe a little shorter even, something like 5'4 etc. But again I'd need to find sources for the height factor.

But people generally are taller now, then what they were in previous generations going back. Again I'm not sure as to the exact estimates of the level of height increase.

But I would love to see some information on human heights during Ancient Greece.

You might find this paper from Princeton/Stanford Working Papers in Classics web site interesting.

“The Athenian Empire (478-404 BC)â€

[spyros]

conon394

I could be wrong but I think Xenphon makes that point explicitly when talking about the battle of Mantinea. The Athenian victory in the preceding day’s cavalry skirmish is also falls into place; the Boeotian cavalry was trying a surprise raid and might well have left the hamippoi behind. It is also worth considering the political aspect at to about the mid 4th century BC, due to it association with the thirty tyrants. At the lowest ebb the Athenians seem to have been happy to seen the Cavalry off with Agesilaus and hope none returned. Given that state of affairs the It’s no wonder the units performance may have slipped.

You may well be right. I just would like to add that the Boeotians were old hands in cavalry fighting unlike the late comers Athenians.

OT but I wonder how the wiki article came up with the $25 value for the Drachma. $25 per day is more than $10 less than the US minimum wage in 1990. Given that 1 drachma per day is an alleged average minimum in the 5th century BC; I can’t see how they get a dollar value that is below the legal price floor for unskilled labor (in 1990).

I would say slaves. Most of the unskilled labour force were slaves, even artisans. That would drive the wages lower. Also, less taxes, no bills, no loans, on credit cards etc. I know that I may oversimplify but as was discused in this thread http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... light=wage it's all about comperative buying power. What can you buy with 1 drachma in the 5th century BC compared with 19$ in the 1990's

And by the way thank you for the article

[hoplite14gr]

Spyro, I aggree too with Paul on his comment about Mantinea but as you said beotians had developded cavalry earlier.

When I say big horses I do not mean the large medieval "destriere" or the Boulogne race or Hungarian race that they could curry their barding and a man in plate armor. (Far from that.)
What Itry to say is that not all ancient horses were of the Skyrian poney type.

Kind regards

[spyros]

No I never thought that you said that. Also let me clarify something as to the size of the horses in the pics. Most of them are either females or geldings, more appropriate for an easy ride in the country than war. For that you need a stallion which is aggressive by nature.

The think is that gelding a horse before maturity, as it is common, restricts it from reaching its full size. Not by much, probably a hand or so .

Dias, the thessalian I rode was about my shoulder, I’m 1,80cm tall, in my book that is not a pony.

Also, Persia and its horse were accessible to the Greeks. Thessalians, Boeotians and Ilians could well afford to import some of them to improve their stock. Not in large number but enough. All this of course is speculation on my part as I have no data to support them.

I would appreciate any further comment on the above.

[Anonymous]

hoplite14gr

Images in the Greek webpage'top to bottom
1st pic : Pindos race
2nd pic: Peinia race (Early Thessalian)
3rd pic: Kretan race (possibly not the original Bronze age though)
4th pic: Skyrian poeny (thought to be very common in ancient Greece)
5th pic: Ainos race (The smaller version on Pindos race)
6th pic: Thessalian race (Later Thessalian)
7th pic: Andravida race (thought to be late Hellenistic to Byzantine periode)
8th pic: Zakynthos race (apearing in the 18th century A.D.)

Kind regards

Thanks, Stephane,

We have a pony which closely resembles 1 and 4, and another which is like 2. I think that 6 (Late Thessalian) may be similar to Welsh Section D horses (Sharon would be better able to give the classification) but we might be able to pass off Neil's light Highland Pony as one. Generally, the Highland Ponies are too thick in the bone to compare with this horse.

[Anonymous]

This a very interesting topic for me, since I love horses.

The barb horse, comes from the Iberian horse

-

I think it's the other way round.

Horses weren't very tall, they were probably 13 - 14hh and this was due to the lack of feed for them. And also that people were much shorter then they were today. And only after importing larger stock, from Iberia or the early Friesian would have increased the size.
-

People were not much shorter than they are today, to judge from the size of their equipment. This is an assumption based on the fact that people in industrialised nations in the 19thc AD were shorter than we are today - a fact that was due to the general malnourishment of a populace no longer producing its own food and paid starvation wages [dismounts from hobby-horse rather than proceed to full charge]. Remember that height is directly related to nutrition, in humans as well as in horses, and that the cavalry would be from the levels of society with the best available diet, as, indeed, were the original Hoplites.

[manda]

Paul your points on height relating to nutrition is accurate and I should have looked into it further.

Lady Sylvia Loch states. "Contrary to popular opinion, therefore, the Iberian horse was the likely forefather to the Barb and not vice versa. It would be more accurate to say that at the time of the Moorish conquest, Barb blood was reintroduced to the Iberian Peninsula."

http://mundo-taurino.org/horses2.html

I haven't yet found any sites on the genetics of the situation, but I'm still looking to find some more.

The common ancestor of the Barb and Iberian horse, is the Sorraia pony. Which has been linked to the now extinct Tarpan and the Przewalski.

[manda]

Also to help, here is a site showing different horse heights showing hands, cm, feet and metres. It might help show heights etc.

http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/info/h ... erter.html

[Anonymous]

Paul your points on height relating to nutrition is accurate and I should have looked into it further.

Lady Sylvia Loch states. "Contrary to popular opinion, therefore, the Iberian horse was the likely forefather to the Barb and not vice versa. It would be more accurate to say that at the time of the Moorish conquest, Barb blood was reintroduced to the Iberian Peninsula."

http://mundo-taurino.org/horses2.html

I haven't yet found any sites on the genetics of the situation, but I'm still looking to find some more.

The common ancestor of the Barb and Iberian horse, is the Sorraia pony. Which has been linked to the now extinct Tarpan and the Przewalski.

That's interesting, although I'd be more interested in the evidence on which Lady Sylvia bases her claim on than in the bare conclusion. Is that on the link you quote?

The Tarpan is not extinct; I rode one last year at Biskupin Archaeological Museum, in Poland, where it was part of a breeding programme. Someone else lost control of one, with the result that a young lady MoP was knocked down. It (the Tarpan) seems to have been pretty solid for a phantom! :lol:

[manda]

Yes thats the link I'm quoting from, I'm still looking for more information on her and a friend said they were sending me links.

Ahh! lol Well thats good news to hear, its not the original herd of Tarpans but rather a group breed to have similar characteristics. But they do exist now, but are pretty rare so you're lucky to have ridden one!

I should have specified it was the original wild Tarpan, I was talking about. lol I'll learn one day!

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/horses/tarpan/

More information on the Tarpan above

[hoplite14gr]

Chariot horse harness.
National Archeological Meuseum Athens.
Kind regards

[Dan Howard]

When I say big horses I do not mean the large medieval "destriere" or the Boulogne race or Hungarian race that they could curry their barding and a man in plate armor. (Far from that.)
What Itry to say is that not all ancient horses were of the Skyrian poney type.

For what its worth. Medieval warhorses weren't that large either. Most destriers were around 15 hands and the heaviest were only 16 hands. They were bred for endurance and agility not bulk or strength. Most horses of the time could comfortably bear an armoured man and barding. Larger horses appeared well after the medieval period when roads improved for pulling carriages. Another point. Medieval man cared little for "breeds". Horses were categorised for how well they could perform a specific task - regardless of their background or breeding. There were "sumpters", "coursers", "hackneys", "screwbalds", "destriers" "rouncys", "palfreys" etc.

A good book on the subject is Andrew Ayton's "Knights and Warhorses: Military Service and the English Aristocracy under Edward III". Stay away from Ann Hyland's books. While she knows more about modern breeds than anyone else alive, she knows little about medieval horses and even less about medieval warfare. she is also very very heavily biased in favour of "Oriental" breeds to the point that it permeates every page she writes.