Notebook Bag

[Flavius Promotus]

Oh my Dear Watson, another bag to build hock: hock:

Great Job Martin! Laudes added!
Now I have to hunt for the article!

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

so how do u carry these? on your belt?

At least not on the belt I'd say, as there is no positive proof that any pouch of that sort (rectangular, box-like style) was normally worn on the belt at all, especially by soldiers. Note however that with the original the side panels are missing and that would be were I'd expect a shoulder strap to be attached to, all the more as the surviving leather does not show any sort of attachment of something like a strap etc (I'll probably attach a shoulder strap eventually).

Some funerary reliefs shows something with a square pattern atached into the sash-band (fascia ventralis). That might explain the absence of the shoulder strap.

Anneius Daverzus tombstone detail:

[Mithras]

I like those! I, too, wonder how they are carried - on a strap over the shoulder...?

[Phocks]

Perhaps there is no visible strap because there is no strap? I believe it was common practive to use folds of the sash as 'pockets' already, so tucking the tablet-holder in seems to be no real stretch. Sashes were more or less uniform amongst centurions/tribunes, so they would usually have one handy, obviating the need for straps. Of course, this is just a guess, but it seems like the simplest solution.

Damien Fox

[Martin Moser]

If the side panel would have survived it would be clearer, but the way it is all we can do is speculate unfortunately. As you all said, there are valid arguments for and against a shoulder strap and probably both versions did exist back then ...

[Primvs Pavlvs]

Who is to say these were carried around? Maybe they were used as storage boxes only.

[Martin Moser]

I thought about that, too, but I'd expect something bigger then. However, as you say, who is to know? :-) )

[Caballo]

First, outstanding workmanship- laudes! I wish my leather sewing were a quarter as good.......

I also went back to the original Vindolanda article by Carol Van Driel-Murray*) and the drawings. The drawing scale is 1:2, giving an overall reconstructed length of 28cm, and a width of 7 cm. One fascinating detail revealed is that the holes for the thread appear to have been made by a knife rather than an awl.

The description reads "(Period III, 5) Tongued strap, with three separate tabs,one of which remains, sewn to grain side, but as the thread impressions on the flesh are extremely faint the strip may have been attached to other layers forming the reinforced end to a girth made of webbing. The edges are bound and a rib is visible on the grain where the tongue narrows, possibly indicating the resting point of a metal buckle."

I think you are absolutely right in identifying it as a small pouch/ bag, though.

However, a quick mock up (thank heaven for photocopiers which expand pictures and easily cut goatskin) indicates that another reconstruction may be possible.

This would omit side panels and sew the edges directly to each other. Not as good looking, but a very practical purse for coins that could easily be secreted in a waistband/ fascia ventralis (as Avitianus suggested). The purse/ pouch has dimensions of 6.5 cm x 9 cm.

I'd really value your thoughts?

Regards

Caballo

*Vindolanda Research Reports Volume III Preliminary reports on the leather, textiles (etc.)"

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Cesar wrote.......

"Some funerary reliefs shows something with a square pattern atached into the sash-band (fascia ventralis). That might explain the absence of the shoulder strap. "


Perhaps what is shown there is an individual wax tablet, tucked into the waistband of a tessaurias?

[Martin Moser]

The drawing scale is 1:2, giving an overall reconstructed length of 28cm, and a width of 7 cm. One fascinating detail revealed is that the holes for the thread appear to have been made by a knife rather than an awl.

Thanks for mentioning this, it had escaped me that a scale was given (I hope and assume it is actually true, sometimes images are reduced in the printing process nevertheless, making scales given worthless). This would make it a

In the museum in Augsburg I was shown a number of awls with flat tips (like a small screwdriver so to say) by Christian when we went there during the RAT Conference, so it could have been something like that sas well.

The description reads "(Period III, 5) Tongued strap, with three separate tabs,one of which remains, sewn to grain side, but as the thread impressions on the flesh are extremely faint the strip may have been attached to other layers forming the reinforced end to a girth made of webbing. The edges are bound and a rib is visible on the grain where the tongue narrows, possibly indicating the resting point of a metal buckle."

I'm not quite sure about that seperate tab she mentions and which seems to be the one depicted right below - if that actually was part of the longer piece of leather above and that long piece of leather actually was such a tablet container, what would have been its function? I have no real idea so far. Note that this piece is mentioned twice in the text, on p15 and p18.

I think you are absolutely right in identifying it as a small pouch/ bag, though.

I'm only following the authors of the article from Vindonissa, they report that van Driel-Murray herself now believes both pieces to represent such tablet containers

However, a quick mock up (thank heaven for photocopiers which expand pictures and easily cut goatskin) indicates that another reconstruction may be possible.
This would omit side panels and sew the edges directly to each other. Not as good looking, but a very practical purse for coins that could easily be secreted in a waistband/ fascia ventralis (as Avitianus suggested). The purse/ pouch has dimensions of 6.5 cm x 9 cm.

Interesting idea and certainly worth a try - although I have to admit that I think that both the decorative stitching and more so the still visible folds at the bottom and at the start of the flaps reported by the authors are a strong indicator for such side panels at least in the case of the piece from Vindonissa.

[Crispvs]

Martin,

Thanks for the excellent work and photos! Yet another thing to add to my list of things I must get around to doing once I have finished sword, scabbard, pugio, sheath, shield cover (x2), spear, belts, embroidery on C4 tunic etc.

"I believe it was common practive to use folds of the sash as 'pockets' already, so tucking the tablet-holder in seems to be no real stretch. Sashes were more or less uniform amongst centurions/tribunes, so they would usually have one handy, obviating the need for straps."

Two things here.

Firstly, I find it quite easy to tuck things into my sash as ling as they are quite slender. Hence I use it to carry my writing tablet, cymbals or miscellaneus small items. However, I do not think it could accommodate something as large as this pouch. Based on my experience with sashes, I think it would be difficult to push the pounch deeply enough into the sash without loosening the sash somewhat. Altenatively, if the pounch were push only far enough into the sash so as not to loosen it, I think that normal body movement would loosen in very quickly and cause it to fall out.

Secondly, can you cite your evidence for sashes being uniform for centuriones and tribunes. I was not aware that we had enough information on Roman clothing to be able to state this with any confidence. In any case, I would expect a centurio or tribune to have a slave or servant to carry bits and pieces like that for him under normal circumstances.

Crispvs

[Tib. Gabinius]

so how do u carry these? on your belt?

At least not on the belt I'd say, as there is no positive proof that any pouch of that sort (rectangular, box-like style) was normally worn on the belt at all, especially by soldiers. Note however that with the original the side panels are missing and that would be were I'd expect a shoulder strap to be attached to, all the more as the surviving leather does not show any sort of attachment of something like a strap etc (I'll probably attach a shoulder strap eventually).

Some funerary reliefs shows something with a square pattern atached into the sash-band (fascia ventralis). That might explain the absence of the shoulder strap.

Anneius Daverzus tombstone detail:

There is a pretty interesting article about that from Dietwulf Baatz in the "Archäologisches Korrespondenzblatt 13". "Lederne Gürteltaschen römischer Soldaten".
In translation "lether beltbags of roman soldiers".


Respect Martin! You told in another theme that you perhaps will do some to sell. Is this still possible?

[Martin Moser]

There is a pretty interesting article about that from Dietwulf Baatz in the "Archäologisches Korrespondenzblatt 13". "Lederne Gürteltaschen römischer Soldaten".
In translation "lether beltbags of roman soldiers".

Yes, I know it - thanks for mentioning it (Baatz, D. "Lederne Gürteltaschen römischer Soldaten", Archäologisches Korrespondenzblatt 13, 1983: 359-61 is the complete reference for anyone interested). It was writen in response to: Schultze, M. "Spätkaiserzeitliche Gürteltaschen mit Knebelverschluss", Archäologisches Korrespondenzblatt 12, 1982: 501-9). Baatz argues strongly - and to me convincingly - against such beltbags. (Note that I don't mean bags or tablets or something else tucked into the sash or belt, but bags/etuis worn in a permanent manner on the belt by the use of belt loops or some such).

Respect Martin! You told in another theme that you perhaps will do some to sell. Is this still possible?

Yes, the reconstructions I have shown here on RAT I will also do on order. Be warned though, this little container is a surprising lot of work, almost as much as the much larger Comacchio Bag :roll:

[Caballo]

"Baatz argues strongly - and to me convincingly - against such beltbags. (Note that I don't mean bags or tablets or something else tucked into the sash or belt, but bags/etuis worn in a permanent manner on the belt by the use of belt loops or some such)." Martin- again, thanks. What are his arguments? Like many others, I tend to carry a drawstring pouch (one found at Vindolanda) on my belt. Are we mistaken?

[Tib. Gabinius]

I can imagine.
If you ve some prices i would be interested in them. Perhaps per PN