300 - What did everyone think?

[Jona Lendering]

While we're on the topic, did the ancient Greeks really paint their opponents as inhuman? Or was that just a modern treat by the author of the comic book?

The Greeks did: in the Politics, Aristotle said Asians were "slaves by nature" and according to Plutarch, he gave Alexander the sound advise to treat Macedonians and Greeks as human beings and the Asians as plants. This attitude is NOT in Herodotus, by the way.

What Miller does, is comparable but different: his Persians are effeminate (they use perfume etc.), cowardly, religious obscurantists (the "god" Xerxes), and black. Now personally I would love to be black (I hate my pale white skin), but in this context, I think the blackness of the Persians is intended to show them as degenerate. None of this is in the Greek sources.

Perhaps this review of the comic book is illuminating (although written in Dutch).

[M. Demetrius]

All I've been saying from the start, Jona, is summed up this way:

Beware of falling into the "Logical Fallacy of the Obvious"--"He said thus and so, so obviously he meant...." In my experience, most of the time it isn't obvious at all until someone says it should have been, then the followers will all agree they'd seen it all along.

OTOH, I don't know the mindset or predisposition of the writers, so I really can't conclusively say. It seems to me, though, that they're portraying the 300 as larger-than-life heroes, and the hordes as the "bad guys, evil, scary nightmare figures", but maybe not because of their ancient nationality, just because they're the bad guys in the comic flick. I could be wrong, of course. It happens more often than I like to admit.

(BTW: I think both the Persians AND the Greeks wore perfumes, although probably not on the battlefield after a couple of days. It wasn't uncommon then, or now. Most folks don't mind the scent of a nice after shave lotion, you know? That's very likely discouraged in modern armies on the battlefield, nowadays, to prevent giving away positions.)

[Jona Lendering]

Beware of falling into the "Logical Fallacy of the Obvious"--"He said thus and so, so obviously he meant...." In my experience, most of the time it isn't obvious at all until someone says it should have been, then the followers will all agree they'd seen it all along.

Of course you are right - but the point of propaganda is that it must be subconscious; if it is clear to see, it no longer influences people. :wink: Anyhow, I can agree to disagree with you on this movie; let's keep this forum a place for harmless antiquarianism.

[Tarbicus]

The reviews on IMDB generally laud the movie, but going to Jona's point, there is this comment:

Though the characters talk about the wonders of democracy and freedom, everything about the film actually makes a case for military fascism. But then, everything about the film glorifies war, often recalling the ways the Greeks did themselves. And to that degree, 300 is a success with the people it sets out to please, although anybody not looking for something more than eye-candy and pompous, self-conscious "epicness" will probably be disappointed. I had fun though.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0416449/use ... s?start=10

[hoplite14gr]

Ancient Greeks being afraid that some city states might aid the Persians declared the Persian Army guilty of AGOS (=sacriledge, the most heinous crime in ancient Greece) as a detterent.
The defence of the fatherland took the form of "crusade" against the foreign invader and that probably gave some hopiltes the moral excuse to anihilate their opponents and refusing quarter.
The Persian threat was constant and real until Alexander so the Persians were described negatively.

As for the film I will wait for the mobs to clear off the screens and I will see it in my leizure at later date.

Kind regards.

[john m roberts]

According to Herodotos the noble youth of Persia "were taught to ride, to shoot the bow and to speak the truth." Scarcely subhuman sounding.

[Mitra]

Jona, i agree that the message can be misinterpreted, but i have heard the same critics also for Tolkien works ( Southern and Oriental men are with Sauron, all the goods are splendid white people, the true king are a pure son fo Numenor,ecc ).

If we must worry about the "politically correctness" of books, films, et similia, then the first has to be the Holy Bible: the old testament is a true concentrate of racial odium, intollerance, fanaticism,
genocides, etc, in many of his books.

Personally i prefer think that the message of comic is that the liberty isn't a free or natural right, but it necessary win and defend it. THe Persians have to be dark, monstrous because are the nemesis of liberty nor because are oriental.

[Narukami]

Not as bad as I had feared, but not as good as I had hoped.

It is certainly not the 'best film I ever saw' but to even call it a film is perhaps a bit of a misnomer. This is a moving graphic novel and follows the rules of the GN genre more than it does the rules of he film medium.

The 300 has more in common with The Lord Of The Rings than it does with anything that happened in Ancient Greece, which in and of itself is not a bad thing. The Immortals looked great -- a real sci-fi / fantasy army.

This "film" tells us more about the current state of Hollywood technology than it does about ancient history. It tells us little about the Greeks or the Spartans and nothing about Xerxes and the Persian Empire.

I was disappointed that the battle for the king's body was left out. However, in spite of all the GN conventions that were heaped upon it, to say nothing of some of the more "modern" cliches put into the character's mouths, the basic story itself is so strong that it still resonates more than 2000 years later.

It is interesting to note just how many Fathers were there with their sons. Even at the 10:30am showing the theatre was full, amny of them young kids. One hopes that, as with Troy, most of them marched right over to the nearby book store and sought out a good book to learn more. (Like a copy of Gates Of Fire or Persian Fire, or one of the several good histories of the battle.) The fear is that now they are certain they know exactly how the battle was fought and why.

Ah well, as we keep saying here in this forum, why worry -- its only a comic book. I only hope everyone who watched it remembers that.

?

:wink:

Narukami

[Jona Lendering]

its only a comic book. I only hope everyone who watched it remembers that.

I'm afraid that's a distinction not recognized in countries like Iran, cf. the first official Iranian comments... Now I think that American movie-makers are allowed to ignore Iranian opinions, but the timing of this movie is rather unfortunate - at this very moment, Iranians and Americans are having their first formal meeting since the revolution.

[Narukami]

its only a comic book. I only hope everyone who watched it remembers that.

I'm afraid that's a distinction not recognized in countries like Iran, cf. the first official Iranian comments... Now I think that American movie-makers are allowed to ignore Iranian opinions, but the timing of this movie is rather unfortunate - at this very moment, Iranians and Americans are having their first formal meeting since the revolution.

Jona,

It is a distinction I'm not certain many Americans will recognize either.

Thanks for the link -- I do not buy the Minister's line of reasoning. This film was motivated by a comic book that was inspired by an old Hollywood film that was inspired by an event in ancient history -- I doubt very much this is part of a plot again the present government of Iran, bad timing not withstanding.

Even so, your point is taken. If Iran is smart they will ignore it and it will all pass quietly soon enough. In fact probably as soon as May when the next Spiderman movie or other block buster opens demanding our attention and our money.

Iran wants to do the world a favor -- make better movies. :wink:

Thanks again for the link Jona.

Narukami

[john m roberts]

I think they're worrying about nothing. The sad fact is, the vast majority of Americans have no idea that ancient Persia was in what is now Iran. They couldn't find the Middle East on a map, and far too many kids can't find the United States. If you showed them a globe and asked them to point to the Americas, many would ask what sport uses a ball like that. And people are worrying about the lessons they might draw from even a fantasy version of history?

[A_Volpe]

I've probably said it before in another topic, but I went into the movie knowing it was an adaptation of the novel, which in turn was based, loosely on the history. I believe Miller had even said that he wasn't hell-bent on 100% accuracy, he was shooting for the "feel" and "spirit" of the 300, which I believe both the novel and the movie did a very good job of.

I agree with you Magnus, the "gore" got a little wierd, but I think it worked in this particular instance...

I wasn't thrilled with the portrayl of the Persians, but I wasn't thrilled about them in the novel either, although knowing (what little) about Miller's "style", I understood WHY he made them the way they appear...notably to appear as otherworldly and horrific and surreal, monstrous as possible, combined with the overall gloomy background and impending doom of all out war, yeah it makes sence, but if *I* was to do it I'd take a different approach.

The same goes for the Immortals - In reality they weren't in masks and didn't act like Ninja...But the Idea and the feel in the movie/novel I think was a very interesting element.

It was good too that the things they did get "right", were pretty good.

I did really enjoy the movie, I think they did a great job. The flow was pretty good, I wasn't bored.

[Caius Fabius]

So what did the 'press' (aka official government permitted press) in Iran say about the Lord of the Rings movies? Alexander? 50 First Dates? What films did Javad Shamqadri make? I can't find a listing ot this 'noted film-maker's' films online, but they must be listed somewhere......?

[Jona Lendering]

Iran wants to do the world a favor -- make better movies. :wink:

If you want to laugh, rent Marmoulak. I saw it on TV in the bus from Shiraz to Isfahan (a busload of people roaring with laughter).

The plot is that a criminal escapes from jail by dressing like a cleric. At first, he runs into a lot of trouble, for example when he has to preside the prayers, and makes all kinds of mistakes. He explains that he was too concentrated and might have been a bit absent-minded.

When he reaches a small town near the border, where he wants to leave Iran, he accepts a position as cleric in a mosque, because he has to wait until his false ID-papers are ready. Much to his surprise, his rather unusual sermons in a mosque attract a lot of people, who are happy to have a teacher who speaks the language of the common man. He also has a strange but highly effective way -a butt of the head- of teaching a man that he is not to maltreat his wife and daughter.

When, one night, he goes to a bad neighborhood in the town to buy a false passport, people from his mosque secretly follow him, and understand that their cleric is giving money to the poor. So they start to create islamic help funds. In the end, the town enjoys a spiritual renaissance.

The movie was shown for about a year in the Iranian cinemas, was banned for a while, but is again available almost everywhere, even in Qom.

So what did the 'press' (aka official government permitted press) in Iran say about the Lord of the Rings movies? Alexander?

LotR: no offense was taken; Alexander was not released (America boycots Iran) but it was shown in many cinemas.

What films did Javad Shamqadri make? I can't find a listing ot this 'noted film-maker's' films online, but they must be listed somewhere......?

He is not unknown in the West. One of his documentaries is mentioned on the IMDB.

[Narukami]

Actually...

That does sound like an amusing film.

Thanks for the tip.

Narukami