Linen Corselet?

[Theodosius the Great]

Didn't SOME Greek linen defenses actually have iron plates sewn inside?

That's what I (and Peter Connolly) thought [size=150:12une7zb]this[/size] might be. But Etruscan frescos show this same pattern of armor colored in all white.

BTW, I don't know Connolly's current view on this statue's armor.

~Theo

[Dan Howard]

The Mars of Todi statue is wearing regular scale armour laced to either textile or leather. Some think this is lamellar but only those who believe that any construction that uses vertical rows of scales is lamellar.

[Come in Nighthawk]

Didn't SOME Greek linen defenses actually have iron plates sewn inside?

Apologies. I was in a hurry to get to an appointment. I was referring to Nicholas Sekunda, Greek Hoplite 480–323 BC (Osprey's Warrior #27); illustration @ A-14. The text accompanying the plate clearly refers to the reconstruction being based on the panoply of Phillip of Macedon discovered in his tomb in 1977 (also see the main text on page 11). One is of course required to believe that Servius Sulpicius Galba would be willing to wear a style of defense that was by then over 400 years old!! But in other contexts we are asked to consider how "conservative" the Ancients (and especially the Romans) were, in failing for e.g. to advance the western world to the stage of "gunpowder, the printing press, and the Protestant Reformation." For example, consider their failure to adapt the principle of steam of the aeolipile invented by Heron Alexandrinus in the 1st century AD to the "rails" of the trans-Corinthian ship-mover to develop a rail road (sorry History Channel). I'm quite prepared to believe that it was plausible that Galba could have opted for a linen-covered set of iron plates --- maybe that would have been more comfortable, and kept the cold plates away from his rheumatism in January of 69 AD? He was after all 72!!

[Matthew Amt]

Ah, that one. I think Sekunda's off his rocker with that idea, frankly. There is absolutely no evidence or suggestion from ancient sources that linen was used to cover iron armor (with the possible exception of removable weather covers), nor that the linothorax was anything except layered linen (except for visible scales on the outside). There are numerous descriptions of LINEN armor, and none of them mention metal or even leather. Some folks still can't handle this concept, for some reason! Sekunda also doesn't explain how the shoulder flaps on his hinged iron thing are going to stand up straight when not tied down, as they always do in vase paintings. Spring-loaded, perhaps?

"Linothorax" equals linen armor. If some ancient writer went to the trouble of telling us that Galba put on a linen cuirass, why not take him at his word? If it has 4 legs, a mane, and a tail, and says "neigh", why think "zebra"?

Valete,

Matthew

[D B Campbell]

This seems an odd episode to me. If the danger was serious, why not wear serious armor? ... Maybe none was handy that day at the palace.

Maybe you're right, John!

Troops in the palace seem not to have worn armour (e.g., Tac., Hist. 1.38: una cohors togata). Could it be that there simply wasn't a heavier cuirass available?

[richard robinson]

I always think of lighter armour as being either hunting armour or sparring armour- which one might conceivably find in a palace.
I first saw the concept of a linothorax being a composite armour in the late 80s in Duncan Heads "Armies and Enemies of the Makedonian and Punic Wars" and although i did not like the idea much then i have swung around to it- partly because i have reinforced a leather thorax with unused old metal breast and backs. Although i had flattened out the front plate to "fit" the line of the cuirass i left the indent of the spine on the back and 'lo- the leather is forming itself to it. in turn this has made me think of the picture of a slightly muscled linothorax i think that is on RAT somewhere? Normally i would have thought "carvers whimsy" but now i am not so sure.

So yes, why not have a composite linnen armour used as a sparring or parade piece? Particularly when Roman style cuirasses have different shoulder components to the hellenic yoke?!

regardz
Richard R

[Dan Howard]

How do you define "lighter". A medieval padded jack made from 20-30 layers of linen will stiop all but the heaviest of arrows. This armour weighs more than a metal cuirass that would do the same job.

[richard robinson]

I would classify light armour in the modern context as a fencing armour
or armour used in aikido etc..In an ancient/ medieval context i would call a subarmoralis/ aketon or stout leather shirt as light armour. I also believe that there were "classes" of linothorax: and i base this on Alexanders generals chiding him for putting on a "lesser" infantrymans harness after a battle to go chase Persians ( you would probably be able to supply where that comes from in Arrian?). I would propose that this is also the type of armour that is portrayed in the Astrotemple and sometimes quoted in the RAT discussions on cuirass and subarmoralis discussions.

regardz,

richard r

[Tarbicus]

In Graham's RMC-2 he's depicted a praetorian in a linen corslet (subarmalis), one of the means of humiliation used by Septimius Severus (plate C2). He admits it's guesswork and interpretation, but is worth checking out if you have it to hand.

[richard robinson]

unfortunately my closest vendor of military books is about 4 hours drive away-in the town where Dan lives. I visited it last Christmas and purchased RMC(3) as it was the only one there and also cos it is currently (last couple of years) been my area of research.

i hope to get them all eventualy.

I will look out for it,

Richard R

[Paullus Scipio]

Perhaps Galba put on a 'hunting' cuirass?

Pausanias describes linen cuirasses as being more useful for hunting,and not so suitable for war, I believe............

In other words, there were different cuirasses for different purposes...

regards, Paullus Scipio/paul mcdonnell-staff

[D B Campbell]

Pausanias describes linen cuirasses as being more useful for hunting,and not so suitable for war, I believe...

Sounds interesting, Paul. Do you have the reference?
(afaik there's no on-line Pausanias)

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

In Graham's RMC-2 he's depicted a praetorian in a linen corslet (subarmalis), one of the means of humiliation used by Septimius Severus (plate C2). He admits it's guesswork and interpretation, but is worth checking out if you have it to hand.

Yes, that is one that I am aiming for, one day! 8) 8)

[richard robinson]

Paulus Scipio

have you met up with Pax Romana
in Brisbane?

regards

Richard R

[Paullus Scipio]

Yes, I have bumped into them at a number of re-enactment events but they seem to be a difficult bunch to get to know and they tend to concentrate on things Gladiatorial whilst my interests run in different directions. I am aware of a new group here in Brisbane who are concentrating on Republican Rome (just for a change!) as I have a strong interest in my namesake the Scipio Gens.

regards
Paullus Scipio\\Paul McDonnell-Staff