Operation Overlord

[Praefectusclassis]

Apologies for the hijack, Jona. Market Garden was a passionate interest before the ancient world took over.

[Robert Vermaat]

Same here. Apologies. It's just that I loved to read accounts from both sides (attempting to unravel mysteries of one party with detailed accounts from the other) before I even knew that I wanted to be a historian. :wink:

[Jona Lendering]

Why apologize? It's just what happens in web forums - I like it. I'm also fond of the digressions in Herodotus!

[Jeroen Pelgrom]

that the allies also failed to notice the 2 Panzer divisions around Arnhem was IMHO also a major mistake.

[Jona Lendering]

that the allies also failed to notice the 2 Panzer divisions around Arnhem was IMHO also a major mistake.

Which brings us to intelligence: it had been reported by the Dutch resistance. As I understand, the Allied HQs were suspicious of the Dutch, and ignored the warning.

And from here, it is just a small step to the workings of the Dutch HQ, run by Prince Bernhard, where the blueprint of Market-Garden was stolen by a spy named Christiaan Lindemans ("King Kong"). If I recall correctly, it is not clear whether he had an opportunity to give it to the Germans.

[Praefectusclassis]

Which brings us to intelligence: it had been reported by the Dutch resistance. As I understand, the Allied HQs were suspicious of the Dutch, and ignored the warning.

Allied HQs, esp. British, had had bad experiences with resistance in previous countries and were therefore wary of working with them. However, the intelligence in this case was believed by high level analyzers, it just wasn't allowed to spoil the party. Market Garden had to go.

If I recall correctly, it is not clear whether he had an opportunity to give it to the Germans.

He did. But too late to have any influence on the battle. The IInd SS Panzer Corps was already in the area and, best proof of all, was in the process of shipping its heavy equipment off to Germany for overhaul. The reconnaissance unit of the 9th, which one would expect to react first of all, did still have much of its equipment, but was holding an award ceremony for its commander on the day the operation started.

[Tarbicus]

As you're talking Market Garden, here's a docu about the Victoria Cross by Jeremy Clarkson that's been shown a couple of times here. A lot of it's about Major Robert Cain, who earned his VC for getting up to some rather jaw-dropping antics during the battle (holding off a Panzer Division by standing and firing a mortar from the hip like Rambo would have done, after disabling and being blown up and de-trousered by Tiger tanks, for one).

7 parts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LufdzZIPPHQ

[Praefectusclassis]

Thanks mate!

[Robert Vermaat]

If I recall correctly, it is not clear whether he had an opportunity to give it to the Germans.

He did. But too late to have any influence on the battle.

True, but then there was the US officer (of the 101st Airborne?) who (against orders) took a blueprint of the operation with him, only to be shot down in his glider and crashing, almost on top of the HQ of general Student? Which, the latter recalled, was almost a repeat the incident where a German officer did the same during the attack on The Netherlands - he thought it a strange quirk of fate.

As had happene in '40 (the Dutch command learned of the German landing plans and took action, foiling most if not all german airborne plans), the same happened in '44. After initially hesitating (the Germans could at first not believe that the allies had been so stupid and thought the plans were fakes, intending to be found), they quickly realised they were not, and started attacking the allied landing zones.

This did, in my opinion, seriously hindered allied battle plans.

[Praefectusclassis]

A lot has always been made of that find. The question is whether those plans were really that important. By the time the plans were found, the German high command had had reports of landings in Eindhoven, Nijmegen and Arnhem. With 2nd Army at the Dutch-Belgian border, and landings close to the bridges across the major rivers of this country, it didn't take a genius to predict what they were there for and how to counter that. Model, Bittrich and Student were highly experienced officers; one Hitler's one man fire brigade, the other experienced corps commander of a corps that had actual training in anti-airborne warfare(!) and the last one a former airborne officer. They knew what to do, even without those plans. The only thing it gave them is when the next landings were going to arrive. But since the weather interfered with the planned time, it didn't make a difference anyway.

[Robert Vermaat]

But since the weather interfered with the planned time, it didn't make a difference anyway.

We disagree there. The landing zones had to be defended with a lot of manpower, since not only reinforcements made use of them, but also supplies were landed and dropped there. This manpower could have made much difference elsewhere.

I agree that it would not have changed the end result of the operation. but especially in the case of the British the loss of their drop zones hit them hard, because failing communications (yet one more of those goof-ups) made a change to new drop zones impossible.

[Praefectusclassis]

Well, of course the loss of the British resupply zones hit the Brits very hard. But it won't have been a surprise to the Germans to learn that the Airbornes were going to have to get their supplies brought in by air.
Their strategy was clearly to 1) contain & defeat the force at the bridge 2) to prevent reinforcements getting to the bridge and 3) defeat the remaining British troops west of Arnhem. While blocking the attempts of especially 4 Para Brigade, they automatically prevented access to 1st Airborne's main resupply zone, which the Brits in fact never held. The other drop- and landing zones were only defended while reinforcements were expected, but abandoned immediately afterwards. That they were to be defended was in the plan from the beginning. It had nothing to do with the capture of the plans.

[Jona Lendering]

Perhaps the following stories -in Dutch- are interesting:

(1)
the account of a boy who saw the battle of Arnhem from a distance, and tells all his experiences - from the beginning of the occupation to the the return to the destroyed city. Pretty long, but not without interest.

(2)
the brief account of a girl who lived near the Arnhem bridge and survived the fight.

The third story is not about Market-Garden, but even more interesting: one of the Dutchmen who worked at the bridge over the Kwai river.

I should translate them into English one day. But when?

[john m roberts]

I've read that German intelligence found the convenient appearance of the top-secret briefcase so improbable that they were reluctant to credit it, assuming it to be a ruse. It's never been satisfactorily explained. A double agent trying to get it to German high command but dying in an accident first? Maybe. A careless officer who grabbed the wrong briefcase in the excitement of last - minute preparations? Far more likely. Market Garden was a notoriously slapdash operation, thrown together in a matter of days. Overlord was planned with incredibly meticulous care over a span of months, and still many things went wrong.

Yet this sort of thing happens. In our Civil War a copy of Robert E. Lee's plans was found by Union troops in an abandoned Confederate position, wrapped around three cigars. Yet with the greatest gift a general could ask for falling into his hands, McClellan was so inept that he failed to take advantage of it. History does not record the fate of the cigars.

[Praefectusclassis]

McClellan was so inept that he failed to take advantage of it

And that's exactly the difference with the Germans in this case. They may not have taken advantage of that windfall, but they were certainly far from inept.