Fulham Scabbard Finds

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

There are more connections between celtic swords and the Mainz ones. The opus interrasile technic is of celtic origin.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

woooooo, now your going right over my head! :lol:
Life was sooo much easier when we could just pidgeon hole things in the three or four categories.

What is the "opus interrasile technic "? :?

[sulla felix]

It is the punched or open work designs you see Byron (as in the web site link I posted earlier in the thread).

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Ahhh, thought it was a new sword designation....Whew! :roll:

[Decimus Aurelius Varus]

What I was meaning was take different 'existing ' plates, from various finds and combine them to make a scabbard that is to your own liking, not make up designs that are fantasy! Sorry if you misunderstood me.

I was trying to convey the same point. Not fantasy, just a little bit of thinking outside the box...:wink:
The gladius hispaniensis was indeed longer, and has a very celtic design to it. But if most of the swords were recycled throughout the Roman empire and during the whole Roman era, then I guess it would be still possible to say that some of the finds are possibly converted swords, or sharpened to a preferred length or even waisted! :?: What army would NOT pick up their defeated enemies weapons. History has shown that quite a few barbarian tribes picked up on a few techniques of Roman engineering...

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

And vice versa..... 8)

[Matt Lukes]

Life was sooo much easier when we could just pidgeon hole things in the three or four categories.

Save that the 'Fulham' isn't actually a type- it's a mainzensis sword for sure. It's virtually identical to the blade from Straßburg save for about 9mm of point length. :wink:

In truth it's not a problem to have many vairiants, with respect to nomenclature- the major types are still applicable, simply add a third name for the variant. It's basic taxonomy: Genus species subspecies. The Fulham gladius is a Gladius mainzensis fulhamensis, the Guttmann Pompeii gladius is a Gladius pompeiiensis guttmannii, and so on. The suffix 'ensis' is used after place names, 'ii' or 'ae' after personal names (male and female respectively), etc.

[Tim Edwards]

We are missing a further scabbard pattern from this discussion.

The Mainz pattern sword from the wreck at Porto Novo had a framed scabbard with elements considered typical for the pompeii pattern, including palmettes, scrolled work round the base, and incised top plate.

It is my opinion that the long windsor scabbard mount, reconstructed by many as a pompeii pattern scabbard fitting, is actually for a a mainz sword, due to its width, context, and similiarity to the Porto Novo find.

There are further examples from Windisch, Valkenburg, and one I have seen from a private collection.

Unfortunately I dont have any photos taken by me personally that I am allowed to post, can anyone else help?

[sulla felix]

Hi Tim,

You can see the sword from the Porto Novo wreck in this thread ( article in German but very nice pictures and drawings!).

I agree that it seems to be an interesting transition in style between the Mainzensis type scabbards and the Pompeiiensis type scabbards, but following the issue of Miks' book maybe a complete reevaluation needs to be undertaken of sword typology?

[Decimus Aurelius Varus]

This sword definitely does throw off the norm. of how we define scabbards of Pompeiiensis or Mainzensis. It is a beautiful find. Thanks for sharing that link.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Life was sooo much easier when we could just pidgeon hole things in the three or four categories.

Save that the 'Fulham' isn't actually a type- it's a mainzensis sword for sure. It's virtually identical to the blade from Straßburg save for about 9mm of point length. :wink:

In truth it's not a problem to have many vairiants, with respect to nomenclature- the major types are still applicable, simply add a third name for the variant. It's basic taxonomy: Genus species subspecies. The Fulham gladius is a Gladius mainzensis fulhamensis, the Guttmann Pompeii gladius is a Gladius pompeiiensis guttmannii, and so on. The suffix 'ensis' is used after place names, 'ii' or 'ae' after personal names (male and female respectively), etc.

Yes, I have said the same thing a few times.. I agree.....sharpened to deat hor somthing i'd bet! 8)

as to having many varients......simple mind here need simple things..... :roll: :lol:

[sulla felix]

This is also an interesting article on early Augustan sword scabbards (courtesy of another RAT thread).

[PhilusEstilius]

I think it should be said there is no such thing as a Fulham type sword, there is "THE FULHAM SWORD" as in the one that came out of the river Thames near London and is displayed now in the British Museum. It is no more nor less than a Mainz type of blade like most other Mainz types, the only true difference about this one is it's scabbard which is straight sided. It is not unlike the Porto Novo scabbard and there is of course reason for this, the main decoration plate of the Fulham is rectangular 8.5 cm by 20 cm approximately. Therefore with it's upper wolf and twins plate and the gap between the suspension bars the guttering has to remain straight all the way down to where the scabbard point begins so as to accomodate the decoration. I think that this one and the sword of Tiberius are only so well known for their scabbard designs the Tiberius as indeed like many other Mainz type scabbards tapers, with the swords there are no great differences only as Matt Lukes has said maybe a few mm differences in point lengths.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

:lol:

[sulla felix]

I think it should be said there is no such thing as a Fulham type sword, there is "THE FULHAM SWORD" as in the one that came out of the river Thames near London and is displayed now in the British Museum. It is no more nor less than a Mainz type of blade like most other Mainz types, the only true difference about this one is it's scabbard which is straight sided. It is not unlike the Porto Novo scabbard and there is of course reason for this, the main decoration plate of the Fulham is rectangular 8.5 cm by 20 cm approximately. Therefore with it's upper wolf and twins plate and the gap between the suspension bars the guttering has to remain straight all the way down to where the scabbard point begins so as to accomodate the decoration. I think that this one and the sword of Tiberius are only so well known for their scabbard designs the Tiberius as indeed like many other Mainz type scabbards tapers, with the swords there are no great differences only as Matt Lukes has said maybe a few mm differences in point lengths.

I think it fair to say that there are a large number of Mainz scabbards that do not appear to taper, so I would question whether this is actually of any significance as far as the Fulham sword is concerned?

Just two examples I can think of here: