Kalkriese mask by me

[PhilusEstilius]

Patryk. Here is a picture of the Vetchen mask it is the one at the bottom right, this mask is displayed at the Rijkmuseum van Oudheden Leiden. When you look closely this mask is very similar in it's construction to the Kalkreise, which makes me consider that both of these may well have come from the same workshop.

http://www.northumberland-computers.com ... /fmoo1.jpg

[Nieczar]

hello

thanx for the link

the style is similar ...but the expresion is quite differend ,the mask from Vetchen is "dead" like dummy's face ...oposite to full expresion Kalkriese mask

in my opinion ,maybe it's one workshop but 2 craftsmans

in this mask the part the edge is rolled and create the half of the hinge ...in Kalkriese mask theres stright edge with broken brass rand ...and only the holes
...it's quite differend soloutions ...off course it's just my opinion ,I just say what I see

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Perhaps the Kalkriese mask was made after the othr one, the other being a less accomplished attempt...
he got is right in later versions?

[PhilusEstilius]

It may have been as Patryk says same workshop but different craftsmen, however there are things about these two masks that just look so very alike. I have found over the years of Roman armour making that many things do look so similar, infact where I made the Vindolanda horse chamfron and the Trimontium one I would have to say that the two originals may even have been made by the same craftsman. Indeed there is very strong evidence for this in connection with the VIIII Cohort of Batarvians, they did vacate Trimontium around 98AD and go south to Vindolanda and a leather chamfron turns up at both places with also much evidence of leather working at Vindolanda.

[Nieczar]

...yes, but still isn't clear case of the soloution for "the hinge" in Kalkriese mask

do You thing is possible some kind of leather thing for the mask attaching ..I mean some kind of the strap or something other ?

perhaps, this mask was attached to helmet's interior ?

[PhilusEstilius]

When we look at the Vetchen mask it still has it's hinge bar on the forehead, then when we look at the Kalkriese there are 2 holes that could have held a hinge similar to that. I have mentioned this in the paper that I have published on this mask, infact there is evidence for this showing in good photographs of the Kalkriese where the 2 holes are in dull patches on the brow indicateing that the mask was originaly tinned and then the hinge blocks were removed. However you have shown in your reprduction as I also did in the copies made of it the 3 later holes that may have held a hook that clipped onto a brow band of a helmet. If we consider that there were 6 holes holding the edge strip which there were, and the 2 that held the hinge, plus the 3 in the center brow and the 4 around the edge, there are indeed 15 holes in the Kalkriese mask not counting those of the eyes nose and mouth

[Nieczar]

in Your's mask You used the hook ...I think it's possible

however there's no remains of something similar to this in the oryginal mask ...even if it was made in iron ...I mean the area around the holes is clear - the same colour and structure like the rest of the mask

iron thing during corozy always remain some cast (for exemple differend colour ) on the material under ...I hope you understand what I mean

BTW. Your's mask is really nice

[PhilusEstilius]

Patryk. I do understand what you mean but there cannot be any difference around the area of the 3 holes, because there was a sheet of silver that covered the whole mask. I mentioned in the paper I wrote that if there was a hook it may indeed have also been made of silver, and could well have been looted at the same time as the silver sheet was taken. As I have also pointed out these 3 holes were the last ones to be made in the mask to fit a secureing device of some sort.

[Nieczar]

O.K. ..maybe we've clear situation with central 3 holes as the part of silver (or something else) hook ....but what about 2 holes on left and right size ?

I found some reconstruction (below) where these holes are for U-shaped plates for brass rim attaching ...but in my opinion it's wrong interpretation becauce the distance between the holes and the rim is to far...opposite to the tivets in lower part of the mask and in the corners of upper part :?:

[PhilusEstilius]

Patryk. There were only 2 U shaped brackets on the edgeing of this mask and they were at the center near the 3 hole arangement, they were also 5 to 6mm apart and held the 2 ends of the edgeing strip that went completely around the mask apart from the gap. There were also 4 other rivets holding the edge strip 2 at each side but did not have U shaped brackets. The 2 holes you refer to on the fore head would have been for rivets to hold 2 hinge bar blocks with a pin similar to the Vetchen mask, for in it's original form this mask was used on a cavalry sport helmet and had that hinge bar removed for some reason.

[Nieczar]

see the picture below ....red rings - the rivets heads ...there're for on the left and right site - in my opinion probobly for U- shaped plates ...similar like in my mask... and 2 rivets in the middle (near hinge area ) rivated brass rim without U-shaped plates

in my mask I added 2 riwets more on upper brass rim and one rivet under the chin - for sure it isn't like in oryginal ...but hold brass rim stronger

green rings - some holes ....for what ? ...in my opinion not for U-shapet brackets like at the picture I saw ...but it's only my opinion

in Your reconstruction there're no this holes ....and there're no 4 rivets near brass rim :?:
why did You make it by this way ?
I ask because I don't se this in oryginal mask :?
sorry , if it's not good question

[PhilusEstilius]

Patryk. The 2 red circles you show at the top corners and the 2 at the lower sides are not rivets this I can assure you, for in the past I did have a fiber glass copy of the original and I am familiar with every detail of this mask. This is how I was able to produce and publish a paper about the Kalkriese, there are 2 holes at the top corners and 2 on the lower cheek areas but they were not for rivets. They are the 4 holes that make this mask similar to the 4 holes in the Vetchen mask, however half of the diameter of these holes are under the width of the edge strip which indicates that they were made before the edge strip was applied.

Then the 2 green circles you show are around the 2 holes that are in 2 dull rectangular areas that held a hinge bar similar to the one on the Vetchen mask, these dull areas are better shown in the picture put forward by Cesar at page 2. These 6 holes were all covered by the silver sheet that was once on this mask, and the 3 that are at the center brow area are the only 3 that would have been seen. The silver being robbed from the mask in the Varus battle has now revealed the other holes that tell us the history of this mask before 9AD.

[Nieczar]

see the picture below...
there's Vetchen mask ...green rings are the places for the holes similar to Kalkriese mask - there're no holes :?

it's still not clear situation for me ,sorry ....Your's argument's are not so hard for me - I need to see to belive cry:

maybe you've some better detail pictures or some drows of Kalkriese mask

[PhilusEstilius]

Patryk. The picture you have just put forward shows 4 red circles these are the places where the Kalkriese mask and the Vetchen mask are similar with 4 holes. The 2 green circles that you show are not on the Vetchen for it still has it's hinge blocks, the hinge blocks of the Kalkriese were as I have explained already they were longer blocks. If you look at page 2 you can see what I mean from the picture that Cesar has put forward.

[Nieczar]

O.K.

it's just hard to belive me there was so long hinge-block ...do You know any analogies for this ?....I think Vetchen mask isn't good exemple for compareing

may I ask why didn't You make this in Your's reconstruction of this mask if it's probobly way in Your opinion ? :?