I think that without going into the ins or outs of just what the Romans did or what many others assume they did, I can only reply by saying just how many rubbish jobs would people be prepared to put up with, for as soon as such rubbish is seen the same would be experts are the first to complain about it.
I think that with all the equipment I have made over the last thirty five years I can safely say that I have yet to have any complaints, and it all goes back to the earlier statement I have made, not to sink the ship for a penny worth of pitch and also not to try to fob the customer with some of the rubbish as we do see on this web site where people are trying to improve the rubbish they have or just forever complain about it.
I agree with Brian. Lately on this site, it has become a "how to " improve things that are just not going anywhere.
Crispvs, are you saying that the torcs are too big? I have a set of torcs that are around 10cm internal diameter...roughly the size of phalerae. Most of the torcs I know of are around this size. You cannot put something 10cm around the neck. So are the ones shown.......larger you think?
"You have to laugh at life or else what are you going to laugh at?" (Joseph Rosen)
The torcs shown in Brian's photo are about the right size, but the ones shown in the photos Gagan posted are rather too big and would be more suitable as Celtic neck torcs than as Roman military decorations.
Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:
Quote:I think that without going into the ins or outs of just what the Romans did or what many others assume they did . . . I think that with all the equipment I have made over the last thirty five years I can safely say that I have yet to have any complaints, and it all goes back to the earlier statement I have made, not to sink the ship for a penny worth of pitch
No one is complaining about the quality of your work but we are trying to understand how the Romans would have approached the same problem. You may be giving your customers a Rolls Royce service but the Romans themselves may have been prepared to accept a Ford.
Michael King Macdona
And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Paolo.
As Crispvs has mentioned your torcs would be satisfactory at around about the size of phalerae 10 cm being about correct however those Gagan is putting forward are way too large.
Renatus.
I am not considering that anyone is complaining about my work in fact if anything did not satisfy me it went into my scrap bin, however you have more or less said just what I am trying to get across where some on this web site who are re-enactors are prepared to pay for a Ford then cry why is it not a cadilac. then spend more money and time trying to make a silk purse from a sows ear.
Indeed when we look at some original Roman gear we find that many soldiers invested their whole carrier and money into their equipment, there are many who try to think too much about how the Romans performed but then life then was as much as it is today the only thing that ever changes is time itself.
Quote:I am not considering that anyone is complaining about my work
Good. I thought that I detected a somewhat aggrieved tone in your post. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Quote: . . . some on this web site who are re-enactors are prepared to pay for a Ford then cry why is it not a cadilac. then spend more money and time trying to make a silk purse from a sows ear.
Now, that I did understand. On the other hand, I am not a re-enactor but it looks as if it could be a pretty expensive pastime, so I suspect that some re-enactors will do what the Roman soldier did: take what he could afford or what was issued to him and then upgrade or replace it as finances permitted. There are papyri from Egypt in which the soldier writes home asking for pieces of kit to be sent to him, evidently trying to improve on what he had.
Quote:Indeed when we look at some original Roman gear we find that many soldiers invested their whole carrier and money into their equipment
You will have examined much more Roman equipment than I have but I get the impression that, in many cases, the Romans went for bling, rather than quality. No doubt, we could argue about this till the cows come home without arriving at a consensus.
Quote: . . . there are many who try to think too much about how the Romans performed but then life then was as much as it is today the only thing that ever changes is time itself.
Here I have to disagree with you. Surely what we are trying to do in this forum is to understand how the Romans lived and thought. Times and attitudes change. You and I, I think, are of a similar age and, if so, will have been brought up in an time of make do and mend, not the throw-away society of today (Does anyone darn socks anymore?). I suspect that life was very much like that for the average Roman.
Michael King Macdona
And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Renatus.
I do understand your point but then life can be indeed a struggle in any period of history and in fact even today where some less fortunate people are even dependant on food banks, the way people and indeed soldiers must well have known they lived in what was then an autocratic system therefore they had to become part of it in their own circles.
I myself was in the military for 22 years just about as long as any Roman soldier I would think and I have in the past also had to darn socks and learn to do make and mend, as well as being in the older age group I am indeed an octogenarian born into the older depression times but have survived.
Then where we think of the Roman soldier many might well have enjoyed the travel and seeing the world as indeed I have myself having flown all the oceans and been to so many countries that I now even forget, in fact it is sometimes better to think of where I have not been.
I still think however that a soldier is a soldier the world over and that the period that one is in is neither here nor there and life goes on, the thoughts of people in the past is not really so far removed from what we all consider today, about religion, and where the next meal is coming from.
I think it might help if someone describes a split pin to Gagan, I think that is where the confusion is coming from. Someone who has not used a split pin before might be unfamiliar with it's use as a form of securing an object from the rear.
Brandon.
I think you might be right about that but if Gagan is paying any attention at all he should not miss how it has been explained to him about how Maxfield does show this fixing method, and then of course I have mentioned to him about just spreading the pin just a little to be able to get them out.
Renatus
I just went back to page two to find where you mention that Maxfield would think the Trimontium pieces might have been riveted to the harness but I don't think I would be inclined to agree with her, for when we look at these back plates we find that there are bell caps that may well have fixed the rings to the plates.
Then there is the other mention she makes of the Lauersfort pieces having the name Medamii as a second owner, that I would also disagree with for exactly like the Trimontium as with the name Domiiti Attici these names were on the inside of the phalerae plates and would not have been seen for they are simply the names of the makers of these pieces.
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Quote: . . . you mention that Maxfield would think the Trimontium pieces might have been riveted to the harness but I don't think I would be inclined to agree with her, for when we look at these back plates we find that there are bell caps that may well have fixed the rings to the plates.
You may have the advantage of me in that you may have had the opportunity of examining the Newstead phalerae close-to. All I can say is that both Maxfield and the excavator, Curle, speak of bronze rivets with washers. I suppose that it would help if we could see the other side to see how the rivets or whatever they are appear there.
Quote:Then there is the other mention she makes of the Lauersfort pieces having the name Medamii as a second owner, that I would also disagree with for exactly like the Trimontium as with the name Domiiti Attici these names were on the inside of the phalerae plates and would not have been seen for they are simply the names of the makers of these pieces.
This is not quite correct. Maxfield states that all the Lauersfort phalerae are inscribed Medami but one has the name T Flavi Festi punched on the face. Logic suggests that Medamus would be the first owner and Titus Flavius Festus the second. It is unlikely that Dometius Atticus or Medamus were the makers of the phalerae. These names are inscribed in the genitive case, indicating ownership: Domiiti Attici = (the property of) Dometius Atticus; Medami = (the property of) Medamus. If they were the makers, one would expect their names to be in the nominative: Domiitius Atticus (fecit) = Dometius Atticus (made (this)); Medamus (fecit) = Medamus (made (this)).
Incidentally, I was wrong about our respective ages. You beat me by about ten years!
Michael King Macdona
And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Here is a photograph of the back of one of my phalerae, made by Anthony Feldon. I think it is a brilliant way in which it is designed to just slip over the straps of the harness. The tongues can be pressed over the straps to tighten, and they are very secure. I don't know how historically accurate this method is, but no one sees it, and it works brilliantly. As you can see from the photograph of the set on my harness, they fit perfectly and are hidden from view.
