Off-the-shelf Republic civil war impression

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

That was why I was looking for my shots. Don't know how tall you are, but I am pretty well covered from ankle to chin with my DSC republican scutum.

I'm 5'6'', about average Roman height. :roll: About how much does your shield weigh?

I'm 5'7", and the DSC shield is not too heavy at all.

The Augustan shields from the Appuleius monument in the same Osprey book (next page, I think) look a bit more complex.

Do you happen to have a scan? The Google Books link I provided doesn't contain the next page.

Interesting that the sarcophagus shows both oval and square(ish) shields side by side - evidence that both types were used at the same time?

It seems clear there was a significant period of overlap as legionaries "transitioned" (if such a modern concept can be used) from the oval scutum to the rectangular one, which likely explains why the "Augustan" type has rounded corners and why the Praetorian Guard is depicted as carrying a form of "hybrid" shield spanning the two types: small like the latter and near-oval-shaped like the earlier.

Any thoughts regarding the helmets I posted, in particular the use of the Celtic Montefortino? I took the idea from this image, though the cheek-plates are different. I can no longer remember when or where I got it:
[attachment=0:3ezw6ds8]<!-- ia0 Legionary9 (Gallic Wars).jpg<!-- ia0 [/attachment:3ezw6ds8]

Or what about thoughts regarding the design of the third version of the Deepeeka Republican scutum?

My other Scutum looks exacly like the ones in the image.
I think it has some characteristics of an Angus McBride painting.

[SOCL]

Andy! Good to hear from you again! I do, in fact, remember your kit from the last Roman Days at my alma mater - in fact, I was hoping you would happen across this thread. We seem to have the same basic set up on the kit, in particular the Find-It armory hamata, and I used a nearly identical kit that you described at an event in Kennesaw, Georgia in 2007. Let me ask you, did you end up trimming the doubler down?, because mine seemed quite, quite long, coming down nearly to my belly. In regards to the Montefortino A, what did you end up doing with regards to padding? I've heard that it can be quite deep and requires some work with the creation of a liner.

This all great feedback so far! Thanks, all!

[A_Volpe]

Saul

Awesome, yeah that's right, we do have similar kits

I did end up having to trim up the doubler ends a few inches. (thanks to a tip from Matt Amt, I use one of those 'squares' as a hand-out for school visits and demos)

I also had to replace the chicago-screw rivets, as they kept opening up and falling out. I happened to have some of the Albion armorers' flat belt disk studs left over which worked out great for the serpentine clasp and rivets. I also decided to not rivet the doubler ends to the chest as others have done, or, made a loop and tied them down. Once I 'lock' in the serpentine I usually don't have much of a problem with it coming undone.

I ended up using 2 of the flat end of those chicago-screws as the lower (decorative?) rivets at the bottom 'notch' of the doubler ends

For the helmet padding, I continue to use what I use for my imperial helms - a wool stocking cap. Sometimes I'll use the white 'pileus' cap that came from Deepeeka with that helmet, but it's not that comfortable yet. I think I might need to put in some leather straps for a webbing, as the helmet can sink down on my head sometimes. Actually what I want to do now is make a "hat/liner" based on the find at Mons Claudianus in Egypt, seen in Sumner's "Roman Military Dress" (plate #23)

[SOCL]

I also had to replace the chicago-screw rivets, as they kept opening up and falling out. I happened to have some of the Albion armorers' flat belt disk studs left over which worked out great for the serpentine clasp and rivets. I also decided to not rivet the doubler ends to the chest as others have done, or, made a loop and tied them down. Once I 'lock' in the serpentine I usually don't have much of a problem with it coming undone.

I ended up using 2 of the flat end of those chicago-screws as the lower (decorative?) rivets at the bottom 'notch' of the doubler ends

I had a very, very similar issue with my screws. In fact, during the Mardi Gras parade during the Castra Romana, Pompeii in Mobile, Alabama a few years back I actually almost lost my hooks when the middle screw undid itself. If not for the careful vigilance of our optio Josh, I would have lost them completely - though I did lose the center screw. It's what eventually drove me to drop the screws and hooks in favor of simple leather thong ties until such a time as I purchase and attach a better hook-and-screw combination. Anyone out there recommend a particular maker or style that would fit with the late Republican period?

For the helmet padding, I continue to use what I use for my imperial helms - a wool stocking cap. Sometimes I'll use the white 'pileus' cap that came from Deepeeka with that helmet, but it's not that comfortable yet. I think I might need to put in some leather straps for a webbing, as the helmet can sink down on my head sometimes. Actually what I want to do now is make a "hat/liner" based on the find at Mons Claudianus in Egypt, seen in Sumner's "Roman Military Dress" (plate #23)

I have Dr. Sumner's book on my shortlist of books to read - right after Dr. Keaveney's The Army in the Roman Revolution. If you're looking for a pretty cool idea, PM or email Edge Gibbons of Legio XI CPF from Georgia and ask him about the liner/webbing he created for his own Montefortino (it's the one I'm wearing in my avatar picture) - it's a pretty interesting and functional concept.

[A_Volpe]

PM or email Edge Gibbons of Legio XI CPF

Ok, will do, thanks

during the Mardi Gras parade during the Castra Romana, Pompeii in Mobile

Oh...Yes, I remember that night now...UGH! The Parade That Will Live In Infamy...

And I had to take that "nature" detour and got lost on my way back to camp...and the blisters the size of golf balls...that was not fun. But the event was really great! :roll:

[SOCL]

Unless Deepeeka has made some recent dramatic improvements in their caligae, I'd avoid them. Try Daniyal or Imperium, much better. I'd also go with the Keltica Republican scutum--the Deepeeka ones aren't bad but the sides seem to straightish, very much like my own less-than-successful reconstruction!

I found a conversation via PM I'd had with Martin Moser regarding the style of caligae and he recommended using the Mainz pattern rather than the later Netherland/England patterns because the Mainz is an earlier style. Does anybody know of anyone who manufactures this pattern of caligae?

Also, any ideas regarding the closed-foot variety of Roman boot for this era? I'm only curious so as to get an idea of choices.

Personally, I think the Mainz gladius is correct for the era. The Deepeeka one looks pretty but the scabbard is HUGE, last I saw! Don't know if they've corrected that or not. And strictly speaking it's a later scabbard, anyway. Their older version was better because the back of the scabbard was a plain frame (and not too huge!).

I have the Mainz with the brass scabbard, the one with the cheesey "engraving" on it (the older version, I believe). This likely requires a change of scabbard, yes?

Something about Deepeeka's Delos sword always rubbed me the wrong way, but yeah, it's probably easy enough to modify the hilt.

Just curious for more details in this regard - I've heard something similar from at least one other reconstruction/reenactment guru (Peroni?). Is it the fact that it's wooden? Am I correct in understanding that this particular item is something of an amalgamation of a number of swords, or at least certain elements...

Edging the shoulder doubling really doesn't take that long, if your hamata doesn't come with it.

I was looking at the "sole, shield, and armor leather" (bend?) from Tandy Leather for use on the doubler. Would this be the right route?

Belt--One or two, should be fine either way. Unfortunately, Deepeeka AH3868 is a total loss and always has been. The buckle might be salvageable. I'd go with plain rectangular plates (plain brass or tinned), but wouldn't argue with unplated. Only the pugio hangs from frogs, the sword does not.

So this means that I wouldn't wear the sword belt "backwards" to the other so that the sword utilizes the frogs? That seems interesting and confusing - mostly because if the frogs are there, why wouldn't they have used them? :? Just another case of (modern, ahistorical) logic not having any bearing on the situation.

[Matthew Amt]

I have the Mainz with the brass scabbard, the one with the cheesey "engraving" on it (the older version, I believe). This likely requires a change of scabbard, yes?

You could just remove the embossed plates. That might mean having to replace the leather covering, though. But a simple frame should be fine, I'd say.

Something about Deepeeka's Delos sword always rubbed me the wrong way, but yeah, it's probably easy enough to modify the hilt.

Just curious for more details in this regard - I've heard something similar from at least one other reconstruction/reenactment guru (Peroni?). Is it the fact that it's wooden? Am I correct in understanding that this particular item is something of an amalgamation of a number of swords, or at least certain elements...

Right, not sure if there is much "Delos" about it! (I'd have to give it a closer look again.) The lobed pommel is from artwork, and I wouldn't say it's wrong, though I'm not sure I'd do it the same way. The Delos pommel was a disc or ball with radial iron nails--don't know if they formed a row of studs around the middle, or were actually attached to the tang washer by their points and radiated out over the top of the pommel. The original Delos scabbard has only TWO rings, not 4, both at the rear edge of the scabbard, making the scabbard hang at an angle as shown on the Ahenobarbus relief. Just how to connect rings to belt is the question... Mind you, there is at least one later Hispaniensis scabbards that does have 4 rings, so for Caesarian/Augustan, that's not wrong.

I was looking at the "sole, shield, and armor leather" (bend?) from Tandy Leather for use on the doubler. Would this be the right route?

Way too heavy! Go with goat or calf, c. 2-ounce.

So this means that I wouldn't wear the sword belt "backwards" to the other so that the sword utilizes the frogs? That seems interesting and confusing - mostly because if the frogs are there, why wouldn't they have used them? :? Just another case of (modern, ahistorical) logic not having any bearing on the situation.

Right, there are depictions (mostly later, granted!) that clearly show frogs for the pugio but clearly NO frogs for the gladius! Probably just to annoy us... If your scabbard has 4 rings, just do this:



I *think* one of the belts visible on the Ahenobarbus relief shows plates--might be the cavalryman? Might be worth taking a closer look at the Arch of Orange, too.

Vale,

Matthew

[SOCL]

Right, not sure if there is much "Delos" about it! (I'd have to give it a closer look again.) The lobed pommel is from artwork, and I wouldn't say it's wrong, though I'm not sure I'd do it the same way. The Delos pommel was a disc or ball with radial iron nails--don't know if they formed a row of studs around the middle, or were actually attached to the tang washer by their points and radiated out over the top of the pommel. The original Delos scabbard has only TWO rings, not 4, both at the rear edge of the scabbard, making the scabbard hang at an angle as shown on the Ahenobarbus relief. Just how to connect rings to belt is the question... Mind you, there is at least one later Hispaniensis scabbards that does have 4 rings, so for Caesarian/Augustan, that's not wrong.

Ah! Yes, indeed - I see it now! Looking at the Bishop & Coulston figures, I can see that the Delos sword is "missing" (that is to say, does not have and probably never had) the four rings - just the two on one side. This is rather like the Titelburg pugio made by Soul of the Warrior, which also only comes with two rings, both on the same side.

I *think* one of the belts visible on the Ahenobarbus relief shows plates--might be the cavalryman? Might be worth taking a closer look at the Arch of Orange, too.

I was examining the images I have of the Ahenobarbus relief and the ones here on the RAT website, but I have a hard time being able to make out much of anything since the images or the relief look pretty badly washed out. That being said, examining the differences between the legionaries' belts and the one worn by the cavalryman do look different in a way that appears to show plates on the cavalryman's belt. Sadly, I can't find very good photos of the Arch of Orange; below is the best I could find.
[attachment=0:1ljs7ton]<!-- ia0 Arch of Orange_1.jpg<!-- ia0 [/attachment:1ljs7ton]

Speaking of the Ahenobarbus relief, what are those helmets the legionaries are wearing? They do not appear to be Montefortinos.


Any tips on making the a wooden spine and boss for the shield?


Also, I was looking over my notes regarding caligae of this era - or at least close enough - and it looks like the Mainz ones are the way to go, so I went looking for off-the-shelf Mainz-pattern caligae. The first I found in my favorites list is this one:
http://www.rigorevali.co.uk/prod02%5BCaligae%5D.htm
Then I found DSC, of which I only knew by way of reputation rather than experience or actual visual knowledge. As it turns out, the Keltica Authentic Republican scutum sold by Soul of the Warrior appears to be manufactured by Daniyal Steel Crafts. They appear to also be sold by Adrian Wink's/Peroni's ARMAMENTARIA website. My question regards their caligae, which can be seen on their blog site: http://daniyalsteelcrafts.blogspot.com/ ... ligae.html Does anybody happen to know if this is the Mainz pattern? If so, it appears that IMPERIUM Armory sells this particular type.

[A_Volpe]

Ahenobarbus helmets -

IMHO I'm convinced they are Italo-Corninthian types, or at least in that 'family'. Looking carefully at them, there appears to be a dent or divot at the top of the helmet, which to me indicates the 'false' nasal plate and eyeholes emulating the look of Hoplite helmets, as if the helmet was pushed up on the head, in the same vein as "visor up" This seems especially true of the soldier walking away from the 'saluting' soldier. It's not a 'classic' Italo-Cornithian, it looks like a later developed one, the 'nasal and eyehole' detail appears to be much less defined, almost melding into the brow of the helmet. Maybe it's an not-yet-found version of the [Attic] style helmet, similar to Connolly's illustration in Greece and Rome at War, page 61, #19 Whether that's erosion of the stone or not is anyone's guess. But that helmet, and the other ones look very similar to the Hermitage museum helmet, complete with the curly-q motif on the side.

I think the soldier "saluting" is wearing a Montefortino type, but the other guys are in Italo-Corinthian, maybe Italo-Etruscan stylized helmets.


There is also something funky going on with the 'saluting' soldiers' crests - I do not think they are the 'pony tail' crest we currently associate with that period (like the one I have on my helmet)...Instead I think there is a different style alltogether. It almost appears to be a short brush/box, and could be horsehair, or maybe a wool for a crest.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Would anyone have a closeup of the scutum on the right top corner of the Orange relief?

[SOCL]

Would anyone have a closeup of the scutum on the right top corner of the Orange relief?

This is the best image I could find:

[attachment=0:1g6n4ido]<!-- ia0 Arch of Orange_1.jpg<!-- ia0 [/attachment:1g6n4ido]

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Pity..that one in the corner looks to have a square boss on a republican type scutum, while the ones on the left have spina type bosses.
I have been debating fitting a spina to the nice one I have from armillum(which he no longer makes unfortunately, but that gives me another possibility! Just wish I could get a better look. Guess I'll have to surprise a work collegue who lives near there one day!! :twisted:

[John M McDermott]

Perhaps skip the pugio. Republican pugios were small.

[jbd_29349]

Would anyone have a closeup of the scutum on the right top corner of the Orange relief?

I don't have a better picture but it does look like it has a square boss.

Hey Saul, talk to Edge about the Republican scutum. XI Has several shield presses and will be willing to help you knock one out, plus they have an in house artisan that does an absolutely awesome job on the shield designs!!

[Peroni]

Pity..that one in the corner looks to have a square boss on a republican type scutum, while the ones on the left have spina type bosses.

That looks like one of the Gallic shields to me.. it has two torques on the face which appear on quite a few other Gallic shields on the monument. IIRC the boss is round but on top of a square design. You can see the same design just left of centre below the cavalryman.

There are also some trapezoidal scuta depicted on the monument as well.