Amazing pugio blade

[Peroni]

As far as the measurements of the thickness of the blade, I received some flak from other collectors, friends of mine, that say that since this is such a rare blade, that I shouldn’t even post full pictures straight on; otherwise people could start making copies.

I’m still up in the air about that, but I see their point, so at this time I think I’m going to have to refrain from giving out any other measurements.

Well you could try to get the find officially published! Maybe through Dr. Mike Bishop?

So many finds like this end up unpublished and in the hands of "private collectors", slipping-by completely unnoticed.

Such an unusual find (I think) deserves a full study and publishication.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Hi!
In fact this pugio blade is quite "standard". In most cases where you see such a blade in a museum or on the net, you see a pic of a blade that was restored before say, 1985. Conservation methods since then drastically improved, resp. the better conservation methods were now used everywhere. Earlier methods covered the blades e.g. with wax, which gives them a brown appearance and completely covers these different shades of metal, resp. the "forge welding". Always remember how Iron objects look, when they come out of the ground.

[stevesarak]

Hi!
In fact this pugio blade is quite "standard". In most cases where you see such a blade in a museum or on the net, you see a pic of a blade that was restored before say, 1985. Conservation methods since then drastically improved, resp. the better conservation methods were now used everywhere. Earlier methods covered the blades e.g. with wax, which gives them a brown appearance and completely covers these different shades of metal, resp. the "forge welding". Always remember how Iron objects look, when they come out of the ground.

Thanks for the info. Just so I understand, are you saying there are a lot of blades with the different shades of metal or are you saying that there could be but we can't really be sure since they're now covered?

And if there are other blades out there, do you know of which museums they might be at or any links to pictures of them. Since I now have one, of course I'm very interested.

[stevesarak]

As far as the measurements of the thickness of the blade, I received some flak from other collectors, friends of mine, that say that since this is such a rare blade, that I shouldn’t even post full pictures straight on; otherwise people could start making copies.

I’m still up in the air about that, but I see their point, so at this time I think I’m going to have to refrain from giving out any other measurements.

Well you could try to get the find officially published! Maybe through Dr. Mike Bishop?

So many finds like this end up unpublished and in the hands of "private collectors", slipping-by completely unnoticed.

Such an unusual find (I think) deserves a full study and publishication.

If the blade does turn out to be quite "standard", then I'm not sure if anyone would really care about it, but if it's still somewhat unique, them maybe I should. I never really thought about it though. How would one go about doing that? How does one get in touch with Dr. Mike Bishop

Thanks

[Peroni]

Send him a PM! he's a regular contributor to RAT :wink:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/profile.ph ... ofile&u=77

Or

http://mcbishop.co.uk/

(Big spam guard to negotiate)

[Dan Diffendale]

How does one get in touch with Dr. Mike Bishop

Send him a PM! he's a regular contributor to RAT :wink:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/profile.ph ... ofile&u=77

Or

http://mcbishop.co.uk/

(Big spam guard to negotiate)

I believe the good doctor is out in the mud for the season, and may not have regular access to such refinements as the Internet...

[stevesarak]

Hi!
In fact this pugio blade is quite "standard".

Have you seen or heard of others 1st century blades with these stripes? and if so can you tell me where?

Thanks

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Even if it is quite a standard blade, the fact that it shows what others are hiding, would deem it worthy of deeper study!

[LVCIVS VVLPES]

my 2 cents

this is an chemical cleaned blade ( cheaper and faster but not better ), that's the reason of the pitting and the pronounced color pattern between the iron and the steel. you don't have that if a blade is mechanical cleaned

just my opinion

Steve I am still interested in the thickness of the blade

cheers
Luc

[stevesarak]

Even if it is quite a standard blade, the fact that it shows what others are hiding, would deem it worthy of deeper study!

You may be right, at some time I may try contacting Dr. Mike Bishop.

[stevesarak]

my 2 cents

this is an chemical cleaned blade ( cheaper and faster but not better ), that's the reason of the pitting and the pronounced color pattern between the iron and the steel. you don't have that if a blade is mechanical cleaned

just my opinion

Steve I am still interested in the thickness of the blade

cheers
Luc

Assuming that the chemical reaction made that much of a difference in color, and assuming that other museum Pugios blades with the same corrosion pattern, that are made of the same steel, weren’t chemical cleaned, then that would explain why we haven’t see others (As far a I know) like it.

Looking at museums pieces though, I see the same deep corrosion pattern as mine, but chemicals didn’t make the pits. When metal starts to corrode it starts to chance chemically, just as a copper changes to a blue/greenish color and is easier destroyed. I don’t remember the actual chemical brake down of iron, I have it someplace, but at this stage, different parts become weaker as they chemically change and at that point chemicals will dissolve those first, leaving behind the pitted iron or steel, the pits showing you where the metal had the extreme corrosion.

A methodical cleaning, chemical or not, assuming that they’re going to take it down to the essence metal, and not leave the crustations of corrosion, will produce the same pitted look. I use a particular metal cleaner, on new swords I acquire, to take off the rust before I protect the blade from anymore corrosion. This cleaner is safe for metal but will take away everything but the metal, it will take material that the metal as corroded into as well as the patina (Which is to be avoided at all cost if possible). For anyone getting an old blade with a lot of corrosion, and thinking of using metal cleaners that strip away everything but the metal, be careful, you may find that all that was left of the blade was the corroded material and you end up loosening your blade (BE CAREFUL)

In this blade though, the inside strips are steel, wouldn't steel have been used on the outside to hold a sharp edge? And if you look close, you can see the darker metal corroding away from the lighter, does iron corrode faster then steel?



The thickness is 3/16.

[LVCIVS VVLPES]

Steve
Thanks for measuring the thickness, a laudes for you.

Here a good article on the conservation of iron, better than I can explain

http://www.natmus.dk/cons/x/metal/m1.htm

other daggers with lamellar damast

I have here two articles on 11 daggers or dagger blades found in the Military camps of Haltern and Oberaden.

Ein Römischer Prunkdolch aus Haltern - H. Westphal 1995

Metallkundliche Untersuchungen an Klingen von zwei römischen Dolchen-D. Horstmann 1995


Haltern,

2 of 8 with lamellar damast

1 with welded edges on a core

3 with welding structure

2 to much corroded to see anything

An interesting observation is 2 of 8 have rod tangs,

for rod tangs see also:
Construction and reconstruction of the Titelberg dagger – L. Vanden Berghe & M. Simkins
Note : 8- Excluding rod tanged daggers, of which even Iberian examples exist, and cannot be used as a means of datation as have been done.

and 1 gladius with welded edges on a core

Oberaden, 3 of 3 with lamellar damast

one blade from Haltern and one from Oberaden are build up in this manner, steel core, iron, steel, iron, steel, iron, and steel edge

Haltern



Oberaden



Cross cut



go to part two

Luc

[LVCIVS VVLPES]

There is also a sword blade from Alesia that has the point part in Lamellar damast
( J. Ypey Europäische waffen mit Damaszierung 2 -1982 )

And a Celtic blade from P-S-S - Munchen



Here is a good article on steel making and carbonizing, its Viking age but can easily go back to the Romans or the Celts

http://www.forntidateknik.z.se/IFT/MNTa ... 20file.doc

Well, this is something to chew on :wink:

In this blade though, the inside strips are steel

Steve did you test the hardness of the strips or do you go by the color?
cause in the test report, on the etched ( alcoholic nitric acid ) cross cuts is the steel dark and the iron lighter.

Cheers
Luc

[stevesarak]

Thanks for the links and reference Luc. Very interesting on how they made steel, I’ve heard the basics before but not the details, laudes to you.

Do you know if the articles you spoke about are also in English and if so, where I can get my hands on them.

Do you know where I can pick up “Construction and reconstruction of the Titelberg dagger – L. Vanden Berghe & M. Simkinsâ€

[marsvigilia]

I am given to understand that steel holds an edge better, but is more brittle. The iron makes the blade less prone to breaking.

But there are certainly others who know far more than I.