Helmets

[Zenodoros]

I thought there were a lot less explicitly homosexual scenes found in Greek art than what is regularly believed... for example the 'adolescent choice' on the last page is clearly a man and a woman, as Giannis said. A lot considered homosexual scenes by scholars seem to be very cryptic pederastic references rather than anything else. :?

Uh oh, the thread's taken another turn!

[geala]

Pederastic scenes, f.e. giving gifts to adolescent boys, are homosexual scenes, aren't they? Also pictures of young men on vases, frequently named "kalos", which might be gifts to favourites. And, to come back to the topic, often these men wear helmets. :lol:

And sex sells, despite all hypocrisy, so pornographic scenes are often shown in popular catalogs.

But I know few scenes with really pornographic homosexual themes and a lot with heterosexual pornography. We should open a sexual behavior thread in the Civ Talk part. :wink:

[PMBardunias]

It is a man and a woman. This pose is common for such images. I have a few that clearly show the hanging breasts. Pederastic images usually show the boy in his lap, while homosexual often involve Satyrs in all sorts of poses.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

It is clearly a man and a woman!---In this vase...The head cover is femail,and the anatomy is not the one used for men...
Marcus,what do I hear,you're about to become a hoplite?

Yes you are sight, it was the position that threw me initially :roll: and the fact that you cannot see the breasts....... :oops: :lol:

If that is me you are speaking to Giannis, I am planning on having a Corinthian made eventually, as that was the idea tha tended up with me being involved in Roman re-enactment to begin with. When I went to Greece and found no helmets that were made in the original manner to fit a human head, I wanted to learn to make tham myself. It never got very far, as I didn't know where to look initially, and then the prices were too steep.

Now things have improved a bit, and am making plans.... 8)

[Paullus Scipio]

A surprising turn of topic !! Naughty boy, Tarbicus. :wink:
Still, ancient sexuality is a legitimate topic for this forum.

As well as 'titillation' books, there are several serious studies of this subject, for those who want to know more !

One such is "Sex or Symbol? - erotic images of Greece and Rome" by Catherine Johns (a curator at the British museum, who are the publisher) which explores these images and their function in the ancient world

[PMBardunias]

One such is "Sex or Symbol? - erotic images of Greece and Rome" by Catherine Johns (a curator at the British museum, who are the publisher) which explores these images and their function in the ancient world

I read that quickly and thought the author Catherine (Zeta) Jones and was all set to buy it :!:

[Paullus Scipio]

:o D lol: :lol: - Sorry to disappoint !!!

Two more interesting, but longer, volumes on the subject are "Sexual Life in Ancient Rome" and "Sexual Life in Ancient Greece" by Otto Kiefer, published by Abbey, London.

[Zenodoros]

Pederastic scenes, f.e. giving gifts to adolescent boys, are homosexual scenes, aren't they?

Well, it rather depends on the area the art was made, I suppose, as only a select few poleis practiced widely sexual pederasty. And often it's difficult to even interpret the scenes as pederastic anyway... I blame Kenneth Dover for all this! :wink:

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

The...helmet...you know.... :lol:

[PMBardunias]

I blame Kenneth Dover for all this!

Perhaps blame those with a selective memory for what Dover wrote as well. A certain act commonly engaged in by homosexual men was known to the Athenians as doing it the "Spartan" way. Thus more evidence of the fame of Spartan homosexuality. Problem is the act was not between men at Sparta specifically, but between men and women. Dover points this out.

Tied to this is the fact that a passage in Xenophon is often misunderstood to mean that women had a Hearer/Inspirer relationship with girls, when in fact it reads that Men could have such a relationship with young unmarried girls! Thus the above act to avoid pregnancy. It is easy to see why Spartans so rarely left Laconia.

But back to topic- if you engage in such acts, always wear your Helmet :!:

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

But back to topic- if you engage in such acts, always wear your Helmet :!:

Ha ha,Yes,well done Paul!This is the message that should pass to the new generation...safe sex :lol:
Seriously,the moderators must be enjoying this topic,did everyone notice we're yet to the "Helmet" thread?

PS.Paul,it may be true that the original phrase "the Spartan way" came in Athens by this act between men and unmarried women,but i do think the Athenians were using it to offend Spartans,in a time when Spartan army was out of the city's walls.

[geala]

I don't understand the eagerness to interprete ancient sources in a way that "sober and innocent" men without sexual interests or only with interests conform to some modern views were the result.
Perhaps we should not only blame some authors but think also about our point of view. The same is of course true for the neverending quarrels about helmets, you know...helmets. :wink:

[PMBardunias]

don't understand the eagerness to interprete ancient sources in a way that "sober and innocent" men without sexual interests or only with interests conform to some modern views were the result.

I think the problem has been that just the opposite has occured. Many early modern scholars and authors latched on to the most liscentious elements of greek society to as a model for their own personal debauched utopias. Its easy to titilate a victorian with tales of ribaldry!

[L C Cinna]

back to the original topic:

i stumbled over this statue of Athena from Pella:



[url:dfvbz1q6]http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:07Pella_Museum_Athene01.jpg[/url]

This helmet looks a bit....strange :lol:

[hoplite14gr]

Though Hellenistic helmets are more elaborate than classical ones this one is very "artistic license".

Horns though existed in the bronze and archaic ages and probably Paeonian Kings had bison horns on their helmets.

Kind regards