Tents, to be linen or not to be linen.

[Salvianus]

Excellent points, chaps

Perhaps light linen awnings as sun-shades and leather tents for better waterproofing were the norm?

[Gaius Longius]

Hi Guys,
Very interesting debate with a couple of points which seem to fascinate me.

John Kaler noted from Livy that the Roman soldiers roughed out a winter campaign apparently sub pellis.

But as Greg Reynaud pointed out if pellis is actually describing skin with hairs on it could it be that sub pellis means a tent under skins to weatherproof and insulate from extreme cold?

Pulls pin, counts to three, throws and ducks for cover . :lol: :lol: :lol:

Regards,

Gary.

[Pontius Agrippa]

I think that this is a good picture that shows that the tents are not only made of leather. It looks like linen and leather together for these kind of tent.

[Paul Elliott]

I always find it intriguing that Paul of Tarsus was a tent-maker, and came from Tarsus - a place where goat-hair was used extensively in manufacture.

From the intarweb: Every Jewish boy learned a trade — his was tent-making or more properly tent-cloth weaving. He was likely a weaver of the course goats-hair cloth known as "Cilicium," a name derived from the province of Cilicia where Tarsus was located. The felt-like cloth was preferred for tents and sails because of its toughness and the way it withstood weather. Like canvas, it was airy enough to allow air to escape in hot weather, yet in the rain the goat's hair swelled up and became waterproof. Bedouin throughout the Middle East still use it for their tents. The manufacture of this material was his means of support during his missionary travels.

Just interests me!

I'm particularly interested in the late Roman tent, and there are one or two examples of simple sheets thrown over uprights (I use a spear and two javelins - fighting man's kit). But the Deurne assemblage includes what appears to be a goatskin sheet which may well be one of these sheets, in goatskin not canvas. I think it is a Roman military tradition that perpetuated. A cheap way to manufacture shelters and tents.If I was 100% authentic, I'd be sleeping under a goatskin shelter, not a canvas one dye to look like leather.

[John Conyard]

Good to see you back and interested Paul. I hope camp is never attacked or you will have to throw your tent at the enemy! Tee hee.

I like to consider the etmological discusion on this thread. I suspect it has the most to offer. But it is certainly true that felt and goatskin tents have been used in the holy land for millenia.

I am not convinced colour or the perceived weight of material on sculpture can help us.
I see no reason why leather tents have to brown. Leather tanned using alum could produce a thin white tent which would drap like material and need edging like canvas.
And I see no reason why a canvas awning could not be made of bright colours.

[Paul Elliott]

Hi John,

I'd hate to think the argument is cut and dried - leather for military tents - canvas or leather for civillian, there are certainly some very fancy looking non-leather looking tents depicted in he Virgillius Romanus, for example, aren't there? Its my open-mindedness that has me pondering things like the goathair tent.

[John Conyard]

Paul, please understand my point is that absolutely nothing is proven by the iconographic evidence. We need to be open minded enough to fail to reach a conclusion!

So we cannot tell if leather or canvas is depicted in the Roman Virgil. Not on the grounds of colour or the perceived weight of material.

[Orlirva]

So its possible that "sub-pellis" means sleeping under a pelt-blanket not a tent, like the mountian men and 19th C. US Troopers used to often do under 'buffalo robes' in field conditions.

Modern folks often greatly underestimate the cost of woven fabric compared to felt or leather. While machines churn out the stuff now like magic, hand making enough thread/yard for a bolt is a stupendous amount of work followed by another (slightly less) stupendous job to hand weave it. Only the essentially free labor (of, not to put to fine a point on it, women and childern) who's hands were to be kept busy every minute they were not doing some more urgent chore, allowed material to be produced at all and allowed the advancement of civilization. (Thanks Gals

Hi,


I can't find any other informations on tents but just a word about "sub-pellis"

Pellis is the word for skin with hairs not always a tanned one probably.
The sub-pellis appears in Caesar : Bellum gallicum 3.29 ; Bellum civile 3.13 and Tacite : Annales 13.35.

This word is strictly different from Corium, a tanned skin without hair (fur is a sign of barbarism during early empire except exotic and precious ones, not for tents)
Tacite in Annales 4.72 tells about Frisons who have to deliver ox skins for military uses (Coria boum ad usus militares)

Bye

[Paul Elliott]

"ad spathas et ad pila" (Vegetius)

Good to see you back and interested Paul. I hope camp is never attacked or you will have to throw your tent at the enemy! Tee hee.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Actually, John's comment about the possibility of the tents being white has some logic to it, especially in a hot climate, as white reflects the sunlight and heat....

[Doc]

Byron I agree that white reflects the suns rays. On the other hand, if you want your camp to have some sort of concealment at night, white is not a good idea since the moon light reflects off of it.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well, I never really thought about the Romans being too worried about concealment, but it is a point, Doc.

[Astiryu1]

Unbleached fabrics would be good enough. Tan, Gray or Brown depending on material is sufficient for such things if need be. I still like my olive drab though! :wink:

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Actually, if you look at the references of the sub-pellis remarks it might well have been that Caesar on his fast marches and marching camps indeed let soldiers sleep under their own pelts... it would explain the fastness in moving camp, pursueing enemies, and if every legionary would carry his own pelt to sleep under, less carts and mules would have been used... people tend to forget that Trajan's column was built 150 years later....

M.VIB.M.

[M. Demetrius]

if every legionary would carry his own pelt to sleep under...
Trajan's column was built 150 years later

Of course the two are different, TC reflecting the Dacian Wars, Caesar more often the Gallic. But there's not as much existant military campaign description in writing from Trajan's day as there was in Caesar's, thanks to his desire to publish his Conquest of Gaul and Civil Wars volumes. Caesar didn't leave a great monument in stone, unfortunately, or we might know more. Neither one of them wrote enough to be sure about these things...what were they thinking? Didn't they realize we'd be reenacting their activities a couple of millenia later? :lol:

I don't think I've ever read of Roman soldiers carrying their own pelts individually. It would take a pretty big one to sleep under, even if they just rolled up in it, and leather is pretty heavy to carry. You could be right, but somehow it doesn't seem like they'd break up the conturburnia like that and have every man fend for himself, so to speak. Unit cohesion seems to be a big part of the military machine.

If Polybius is right, a whole legionary camp could be built and set up in just a few hours, since the jobs were known, the campsite preset and marked, and if those assignments stayed pretty constant through the times we're discussing, then likely, given good weather and reasonably full staff, a papilio could probably be unfolded and pitched in ten minutes or so. Breakdown would be about the same, and that task could be completed while the cook portioned up breakfast. But we theorize, right?