Belt Advice on Construction

[Titus Marius Secundus]

I see! Well I would imagine they might have a mix of "shin" bones which are both metatarsus and metacarpus in the shin pile. The back legs are metatarsus, and are rounder which I want. Unfortunatly I may only be able to find an adults :/ I don't suppose a local farm would have a CALF's bone. I don't see any suitable $3-4 bones on Legio xx's site :/ sigh :evil:

And really Crispvs, no need to be so polite I take forever to show progress, maybe some others do but I am still unhappy with what time is allowed to be dedicated to recreations.

Earlier today I bought a 10" brass sheet. I looked at it and brass showed different qualities than I expected from a 10" sheet, so yes, 15 would be a pain to stamp!!! Sorry for my ignorance!!! I will produce maybe 6 belt plates. I am going to try using rods, and a raised female to stamp the rod into my plate, curving the plate the majority of the way for a barrel. Don't worry results will show in time

As for not having a brass plate for a guard, I must ignore good looks and go with a recessed blade.

Anyway, maybe some good news by tomorrow night, thanks

Sam

[Crispvs]

Sam,

Just to sound a note of caution, make sure you look carefully at the 'shin' bone pile. The term 'shin bone' is often applied to what is otherwise known as the shank bone, which is the large bone which comes between the femur and the metatarsal. The shank bone (especially the rear shank bone) is by far the most useful bone for general bone working, as it can be cut into three large, thick and fairly flat pieces, but it is far too big in section to be able to be used for a grip.

The metatarsal canon bone you want for a grip should be an inch to an inch and a quarter thick at its mid-point and you should see an indentation running along the length of both the upper and lower sides. If it is complete (sometimes the nocks will have been cut off) the lower end will divide into two separate 'knuckles' each or which will have a ridge running around its centre. The opposite end should look like the lower left nock in the picture below. Note the 'T' shaped indentation. All four of the nocks in this photograph are from canon bones. The two on the right are from metacarpal bones and the two on the left are from metatarsal bones. As you can see, the nocks of the metatarsal look different to those of the metacarpal. Of the two metatarsal nocks in the picture the upper one is from an adult's bone (in fact the one I used for the guard of my sword handle) and the lower on is a calf's (and is the one from the bone I used for my grip).



The overall bone should look like this:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ws5DCOjgiaI/TY...000590.JPG

Crispvs

[Titus Marius Secundus]

Oh my I've seen these bones in the pet store, going for about $6...but it still might be an adults. I shall make another trip when we go to the grocery store next to it. I really appreciate the picture along with the description of the correct bone. Does it matter on color? I've seen brown and white bones :S One is purposefully bleached or?

I have tried today a better method of stamping plates. I haven't successfully stamped one this way, but it involves two sides of oak, with the male with it's punches double sided taped on, and a matching concave female, which has the concave design born into the wood. I tried using a piece of brass, that was cut with the true dimensions of the plate, but it curved and crinkled as it was stamped. I'll work around this, either by using a larger piece of brass, and after stamping going through the trouble of cutting it down, or by making the rolling of the edges something I'll do after stamping, as this is the only way I can put the two processes together, but so far causes crinkling. I am sure using a larger blank will fix this. I have faith in using this oak bases compared to the blue taped tin as before. Just a matter of making it work with pre sized plate blanks.

Here in the pics as well is me with the helmet that JKaler sent me!!! I apparently am not entirely finished with the surface, but I think it's looking much better than it did before. As you can see the brow piece has broken off :S Also a stand for my future entire kit! I also have the shoulder and back and chest plates cut in cardboard ready for templating for a segmentata. I also am showing my leather I have left. 3 OZ, I could double it for a belt, but I'm unsure if it's "Kosher" or not veggie tanned!!! I didn't get home in time today to order leather over phone, must try tomorrow, sorry!

My dad has showed me how to use the sewing machine, so when I do get my leather and am ready to stitch the edges, I may decide on zig zags, or a straight line, etc etc!!!

Here's some pics!

Sam

[ANTONIVS MAGNVS]

Got an idea for you to try out for the belt plate. Take the sheet of brass and sandwich it between your two oak dies. Then put it in a vise and squeeze. That will keep the plate straight and still make the impression as long as the two pieces of oak "match". Not sure if it will work but let me know! :-P

[Titus Marius Secundus]

I have a vise the size of my head, bigger! Lol...thank you but is what I am doing. The first example of a prototype worked well, but made with rings and tape covered tin! :S the oak still needs a chance, not tried with just an oak female yet, I hope it will produce a nice clean result!

Thanks again, all advice is welcome. If you wonder why I post all this, is so people don't have to learn for themselves! Lol..

Sam

[Magnus]

As long as you are using thin sheet, say 0.015" this will happen. If you use something thicker, like 1/32" you should be okbut the pressure required to make the impression may damage the oak.

[Titus Marius Secundus]

I am using 10" :S anything thicker, maybe not 15, but would be terribly straining. I anneal very well over gas stove to a nice red... shall see. If I use a larger blank...might solve but like I said then you have to cut or saw past the rolled edges, and risk having to open them or round them our again. All takes time!

[Titus Marius Secundus]

I finally have my bone! Sorry if it's not the perfect bone, but it's the best of like 16 choices! I spent 25 minutes inspecting blemishes etc in the pet store! This is always a bit over one inch in width, and it's not the smallest version, but the smaller bones around 7 inches, not this 9, had either a crack, or were black inside, which I wouldn't think would make for a very nice handle. I also thought that these bones would be more hollow, or porous. I am hoping you can approve this bone May I ask where to cut it? How many inches in length shall I start with. I would think about 4 inches. No more really. I like a octagonal shape idea. I am debating if I can produce a nice pompeii sword. I think that most recreations I see on the internet by various suppliers look cheap! Anyway, HERE! I am still working bit by thoughtful bit on my plate dies.

Don't worry new threads will be made on progress reports after I've made a successful belt plate, and another thread on gladius #2!!!

Sam

[Crispvs]

Excellent - that bone looks perfect!

You may need to boil it before you do any shaping. If the bone has a greasy, possibly soapy feel to the touch and has a yellowish look, it will need to be boiled for a couple of hours to remove fat and oil from the bone. It is useful to cut off the nocks before boiling as this both reduces the overall amount of bone to be cleaned and also opens the ends to allow marrow, fat and oil to be expelled more easily. You will need to keep it topped up with water to stop the bone from being burnt and cracking. You will also need to change the water two or probably three times as well, as fat in the water will otherwise start to be absorbed back into the bone.

Once the bone has been boiled long enough to leach most of the fat out of it, you should leave it in a warm place (but not too close to any direct heat, which may cause it to crack) to dry out for a few days before doing any further work to shape it into a grip.

Be aware that the process of boiling up bones is a smelly one and female members of your household will almost certainly find the smell very off-putting.

If, of course, your bone is dry to the touch and is fairly white throughout, it probably will not need boiling as this will clearly have been done already.

I would cut the nock off about an inch past (ie towards the middle of the bone) the hole closest to it. By that point the bone will be thick enough to be useful. I would then cut the other nock (the one with the 'knuckles') off about five inches from this first cut.
The grips from Vindonissa vary in length between three inches and slightly over three and a half inches. This may seem small but this length actually makes for quite a secure grip as it means that the hand presses on the pommel and guard as well. As bones vary in their thickness, cutting a five inch length will mean that you can shorten it to three and a half inches by taking away the thinnest bone no matter which end it happens to be on.

Having cut your bone to the final length, you then need to bring it to a more or less square section. This may involve a good deal of filing and some judicious and careful sawing may also be necessary. Make sure you retain a good thickness of bone all round as you will need to carve down into it later. The originals are normally about an inch wide at their widest points so try not to let your bone get narrower than this.
Once the bone has been squared, chamfer off the edges and then bring it gradually to an octagonal section. Each of the eight sides will ideally be equal in width, although many of the originals are far from equal and precise in this respect.

Having achieved a satisfactory section along the length of the bone you then need to start making the four depression which run around the grip and provide the actual 'grip'. Divide the length of the bone into four equal sections. You may find it useful to mark these onto the bone as a guide. Use pencil to do this as using biro or a marker pen would allow ink to penetrate into the bone (bone being porous) and stain it permanently.
Use a half round file to make shallow depressions a sixteenth to an eighth of an inch deep on each side. Make sure these depressions are wide enough to meet edge to edge down the grip so that three reasonably sharp ridges are created down the length of the grip. These should be more or less at the points you earlier marked with your pencil. Do this for each side and make sure you work carefully in order to maintain eight distinct sides so that you are left with three horizontal ridges and eight vertical 'ridges'. You may find you prefer to do each full side in turn, or you may alternatively find you prefer to do the full circuit before then moving onto the next circuit. It is up to you.

You may find that you need to widen the internal space somewhat to accommodate the tang of your sword, as the space inside the metatarsal (and in most other bones for that matter) narrows towards the midpoint of the bone. As the metatarsal is so narrow at its midpoint, the internal space can be too narrow to admit the tang, hence the possible need to widen it with narrow files to ensure a snug but sufficient fit.
You may also find it useful to gently hammer small wedges into the top of the inside of the grip once it has been placed onto the tang to stop it from moving once it is in position. I used wooden wedges in mine as I judged that metal wedges could have had a gradual abrasive effect on the bone, leading to an increasingly loose fit. I decided against a soft wood like pine though which would crush as it was hammered in, and made my wedges from oak instead.

I hope this helps.

Crispvs

[Titus Marius Secundus]

Absolutely, not only for me but for future DIY's ! Everything I need to do. My bone as you can see it's a yellowish white, off white, and it glistens a bit, and I expect has some moisture properties. I don't think it's probably been boiled, but it's a very clean bone, unlike others I've seen. I can ask my dad for his opinion, but it does remind me of a bar of soap :S Would it be worth a try boiling it? Also, on some bones, you could see some hair-line cracks, this could mean it HAS been boiled, by the manufacturer, but some bones haven't been properly set, meaning this result is telling me that these very clean semi-white bones, have been boiled...TOUGH! I shall ask my dad, and if this description is of any help to an answer, I'd be grateful for it. I don't expect you to really be able to tell me much more though :S If this description won't do, I will ask on it at the pet shop and my dad.

Many regards and thanks,

Sam

[Crispvs]

If the colour is at all yellowish and it feels soapy then I would say that it will need boiling. It may already have been boiled but the soapy quality indicates that there is some way to go yet. Don't worry too much about cracks. If it has none already then it should not develop any unless you forget to top up the water and it gets too much 'undiluted' heat or you place it too close to a source of direct heat when drying (do not lay it on a heater to dry, for example).

If it has cracks already you may be in for trouble once you start using the finished sword as hairline cracks could result in a very authentic looking failure (a number of surviving grips show signs of having broken along such cracks under use).

Use a very large saucepan or stockpot for boiling the bone as the greater amount of water will both allow the more time between topping up and more water for fat and marrow to flow into before the water is changed (note that topping up and changing the water are not the same thing and it is worth giving the pot a bit of a clean between changes). You will probably be surprised by just how much fat even a small piece of bone actually holds. Don't expect to spend anything less than a good couple of hours (possibly longer) boiling your bone and make sure you cut it to five inches or less as described above before you do.

Crispvs

[Titus Marius Secundus]

Ahhh! So I'm on the hunt for another bone!! WHY?! IT BROKE ON ME! I went to the shop and asked the lady about the bone, both her and my dad said that the bone was fully boiled, just bones being bones, they have a slight shine to them

So I went home and put it in the vice and cut off a knock. I was careful about pressure and I didn't tighten it too much, only enough to hold the bone. I used a metal cutting saw, which was suggested on the internet for cutting bone. I then cut another half an inch off, and then the other knock. The smell was pretty bad and the dust is so fine it will make you gag, so yes I used gloves and I used a mask. I took the bone out the vice and inspected it, I placed the bone down with a drop of about three inches, and it broke in two, I picked it up and broke in three, etc etc... I am wondering if all the bones in the pet shop were processed improperly?!?! Thus cracking. I did see many bones with these fractures in them :S I am not sure if I must find a "fresh" bone :/


I have made some good progress though! I have made a simple belt plate, a finished one more or less. I will buy some brass rods, and order ball bearings off the net, so I can solder into precisely cut lengths of rods, to add that decorative part to a plate. It stops the edge being an open barrel, and will look a lot better! I am sure it's worth the effort!
So the process of making this I shall verbally explain, and when I make a blog of making the belt you will see the vice etc then, OR SOON :p

I cut a brass blank with a pair of good scissors, the dimensions of 2 inches tall by two and a half wide. (Please not that on the next plate I may increase to 2-3/4's " in width, so the rolled edges may properly roll around a rod, and have some extra to close up properly!) I annealed this blank, and polished on buffing wheel. Next time I will anneal two plates at a time as a thin single piece loses a lot of heat! Polishing too, as when I'll put two pieces together it'll increase resistance to bend when polishing.
I positioned it evenly inside the stamp, and stamped it twice. One way right side up, the other time upside down, so even considering slight blemishes, it's perfectly symmetrical. I got a matching length of rod and rolled the edges over this when out the stamp. In fact,later I will show you pictures of the whole process! Easier... sorry haha. Here's some pictures anyway!

Sam

[ANTONIVS MAGNVS]

Plates are looking nice Sam. I'll have to try this as mine are simple brass plates without rolled edges.

[Titus Marius Secundus]

haha thanks! Just wait till I get some pics to show u how.

[Titus Marius Secundus]

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