Elgin Marbles Poll

[Idomeneas]

The new acropolis museum does a fine job as an an exhibition space, but personally i disagree with the architectural style of the building. No i wouldnt prefer the copy of an ancient temple as may many people would. I cant deny though that a sollution of that kind even if ''unimaginative'' would be more focused. I would like to see a modern building with architectural elements that even subconsciously would conect the viewer/visitor with antiquity. Anyway that is a personal taste thing..

The no picture taking rules really annoyes me! In any museum i came acrossed it and especially in Greece. As i mentioned before 2 years ago there was this great Athena-Sparta exhibition in Sparta. I was so happy that all these artifacts were in one place and though the great photos i could take. Wrong! I never use flash in museums for obvious reasons, even then an employee told me that i am not allowed to take pictures. I explained that i dont used flash, so i cant see where the problem is, just to hear the same ''tape'' again ''picture taking is not allowed''. I was sure that any arguement would have the same answer as if i was talking to a live answering machine. So i did it the Greek way. When she was looking the other way or going in an other room i was taking pictures :lol: . But then i was more annoyed that i had to play ''secret agent''. I cant understand why i cant take photos of artifacts that supposed to be my national heritage and i already paid the fee to see them (in previous years fees were only for tourists). Am i forced to buy overpriced card postals? This is an issue that should be adressed.

[Rumo]

http://www.britishmuseum.org/the_museum ... gures.aspx

The sculptures from the Parthenon now in the British Museum have been in London longer than the modern state of Greece has been in existence. :lol:

[Medicus matt]

I am sure that British people wouldnt like to have parts of the Stonehedge all over Europe.

Wouldn't bother me in the slightest, Stonehenge itself is very, very dull and it gets in the way of the interesting landscape surrounding it.

Swap?

On a more serious point, as it stands, anyone can go to see the marbles (and many thousands of other fascinating pieces) at the BM for free, can photograph them without restriction and can get to within mere inches of them to study them in detail. Would the same be the case if they were rehoused in the Akropolis museum?

The BM COULD make a great deal of money from it's collections by prohibiting photography, forcing visitors into buying postcards, expensive catalogues etc. It chooses not to, and it should be applauded for that attitude and for the sterling work that it has done (and continues to do) in preserving items from cultures the world over that might otherwise have been lost forever, rather than held up as being some sort of hangover of rapacious Imperialism.

[Crispvs]

Matt,

I couldn't agree with you more!

Regarding Stonehenge, everyone always thinks of the sarsen stones which are there for everyone to see (the more so thanks to having been rebuild from the fallen material several decades ago) but the bluestones from Stonehenge have been taken all over the place and hardly any of them are now anywhere near Stonehenge itself. I am not complaining though. We know how they were originally placed, we know what sort of stone they were made from and we know how they were made. Where they were quarried from is more contraversial but that is not a matter for this particular debate.

Crispvs

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I am sure that British people wouldnt like to have parts of the Stonehedge all over Europe.

Wouldn't bother me in the slightest, Stonehenge itself is very, very dull and it gets in the way of the interesting landscape surrounding it.

Swap?

While I agree on the Stonehenge issue, which is not a great comparison, there are plenty of other artifacts of British culture which I'm sure would illicit similar feeling if whisked away to foreign shores.
And there is no argument against the preservation, despite the damage done, by the BM, of these artifacts.
But there is also no argument against the importance to Greece of these artifacts, and to continually say they were bought legally,
etc etc, is not a good argument.
The fact that the Greeks behave in such a paranoid manner about what they have left in the country, is probably a direct result of the plundering of the
countries heritage by most of the European countries, during the period of Ottoman occupation. Can anyone say the ywould honestly behave ahy differently? Not likely....

[Crispvs]

Well, I haven't seen that many petitions about requesting the return of the Bayeaux Tapestry, which is almost certainly English work and depicts a significant event in English history.

Crispvs

[Medicus matt]

Well, I haven't seen that many petitions about requesting the return of the Bayeaux Tapestry, which is almost certainly English work and depicts a significant event in English history.

Crispvs

:lol:

And an apology from Normandy wouldn't go amiss either.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well, I haven't seen that many petitions about requesting the return of the Bayeaux Tapestry, which is almost certainly English work and depicts a significant event in English history.

Crispvs

So the crown jewels can go for a song? :wink:
I'll have Hadrians wall, a tenner do?
How about the contents of Leeds armoury, or the tower of London? Can we get a cheap price for them too!! D D
Wow, you guys are really cool after all, just happy to sell off everything :mrgreen:

Or perhaps that latest Saxon gold find? A few quid in the right pockets, nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more! Say no more!!!!

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Byron,

While I agree on the Stonehenge issue, which is not a great comparison, there are plenty of other artifacts of British culture which I'm sure would illicit similar feeling if whisked away to foreign shores.
And there is no argument against the preservation, despite the damage done, by the BM, of these artifacts.
But there is also no argument against the importance to Greece of these artifacts, and to continually say they were bought legally, etc etc, is not a good argument.

I doubt that the damage done by the BM (what damage was done?) would in any way compare to the state of these marbles had they been in place for the past century. This is in no way meant as a negative comment towards Greece, because air pollution is a major problem for many many monuments in modern cities. Therefore I think that more monuments should be placed indoors. Therefore we agree on that?

However, I disagree about your view on the sale. It simply a case of someone buying an artifact that later becomes important. At the time I doubt very much that anyone cared. Monuments, ancient or medieval, were continuously torn down all over Europe, and nobody at the time had any sense of cultural importance or preservation. In that sense, Greece did not differ from The Netherlands, where countless landmark monuments and buildings were torn down, re-used or re-developed. It's no use looking back through modern glasses and get angry about that loss.
Byron, it does indeed not matter what the circumstances at the time were - legal or illegal, nobody cared, not even in Greece. That many care today makes no difference.
When I'm comparing that to the Elgin marbles, I would protest to any sale of a Rembrandt painting (or any other master) out of the country, before their cultural importance was noticed. In line with this discussion I would echo the demand for their return plus the millions of profits they generated in their respective foreign countries.

The fact that the Greeks behave in such a paranoid manner about what they have left in the country, is probably a direct result of the plundering of the
countries heritage by most of the European countries, during the period of Ottoman occupation.
Can anyone say the would honestly behave any differently? Not likely....

Maybe, and maybe not.
Many treasures were lost during WW2 over here, and as a colonial power, many treasures were looted from the countries in our power. It would mean the end of every museum collection. Claiming ownership based on cultural importance or heritage, while not a bad thing in principle, is not a basis for restitution after a hundred years or more.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

The was no way to complain.
As soon as they gained independance, there were calls for the return.
I would not make such a bold statement as 'no one cared' Robert.
Not every voice from history is recorded, even in todays era of muti media and internet....

[Robert Vermaat]

As soon as they gained independance, there were calls for the return.

Who did? Not the Greek government. We discussed the why's and why not's here already. Are you talking about one or a few individuals or was there a popular movement calling for their return at that time?

I would not make such a bold statement as 'no one cared' Robert.
Not every voice from history is recorded, even in todays era of muti media and internet....

That's also easy to say. Do you have any evidence of the opposite? I mean really from the time of the sale?

Come on Byron, there is no comparison between our current appreciation of history and that of 150 years ago. it was not a matter of being occupied, such appreciation (especially among the population) was not exactly large. Archaeology did not yet exist, and only a few people with a classic education (or in the arts) cared. I find that totally incomparable, and not a base for a discussion.

I find it perfectly alright to discuss this topic from a modern point of view, but it's useless to discuss it as if the circumstances were different back then, or should have been.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

As soon as they gained independance, there were calls for the return.

Who did? Not the Greek government. We discussed the why's and why not's here already. Are you talking about one or a few individuals or was there a popular movement calling for their return at that time?

I would not make such a bold statement as 'no one cared' Robert.
Not every voice from history is recorded, even in todays era of muti media and internet....

That's also easy to say. Do you have any evidence of the opposite? I mean really from the time of the sale?
....

Come on Robert, you know there is no evidence, but just look at something as basic as politics wit hin a business, and see who's version of events gets recorded....

[
Come on Byron, there is no comparison between our current appreciation of history and that of 150 years ago. it was not a matter of being occupied, such appreciation (especially among the population) was not exactly large. Archaeology did not yet exist, and only a few people with a classic education (or in the arts) cared. I find that totally incomparable, and not a base for a discussion.

I find it perfectly alright to discuss this topic from a modern point of view, but it's useless to discuss it as if the circumstances were different back then, or should have been.

You seem to have changed your argument from saying there is no way to put modern viewpoints on the subject to saying there is room for modern interpreation, all in one paragraph. Modern freedoms and communication allow for quick organization of people nd protest. There was no way for mainly illiterate populations to make their feeling felt.

7. Requests for the removal of the Parthenon Sculptures
7.1. The suggestion that the Parthenon sculptures be removed from the British Museum and sent to Athens is not new. Such a possibility was first mooted in Britain by Hugh Hammersley MP in the House of Commons debate of 7 June 1816. Calls from individual Greeks for their removal began in 1833. In 1965 the Greek Minister of Culture went so far as to call for all Greek antiquities to be located in Greece. After the fall of the military dictatorship in 1974, the Parthenon sculptures began to take on a new role as a symbol of the revived democracy and from 1982 were championed by the late Melina Mercouri as Greek Minister of Culture. Ever since, the removal of the Parthenon sculptures from London has been a feature of Greek Government policy, national and international.

[Robert Vermaat]

Come on Robert, you know there is no evidence, but just look at something as basic as politics within a business, and see who's version of events gets recorded....

Sorry Byron, I have plenty of evidence about the care (or rather lack of ) for ancient monuments during the early and mid-19th centuries to suppose that in Europe, including Greece, no popular sentiment existed towards the preservation of such monuments.
I hear what you say about the victors writing history and the occupied population having no voice, but that is no argument, because the Greeks wrote that history. And still they never recorded such popular views.
And supposing that there ‘was something there’ due to ‘common sense’ is really no argument for a discussion. You can’t claim evidence like that.

You seem to have changed your argument from saying there is no way to put modern viewpoints on the subject to saying there is room for modern interpreation, all in one paragraph.

Maybe I seem to, but I haven’t. Maybe I did not express myself clear enough.
We can discuss modern heritage and possible national rights of ancient artifacts up to a point. We can’t discuss an event like the Elgin marbles sale as if our current views existed in the same way back then.

Modern freedoms and communication allow for quick organization of people nd protest. There was no way for mainly illiterate populations to make their feeling felt.

Very true, but I’m arguing that these feelings did not exist at the time. Not among the mass of the population. They did not exist in the rest of Europe, so I’m not prepared to accept that they did exist in Greece, even though there is not a shred of evidence.
As a comparison, when The Netherlands was occupied by France (Napoleon), the French tore down most of the remaining town walls here, partly because of security reasons, partly because of city development. There was no massive sentiment towards their preservation here. To the contrary, what was left standing was torn down after napoleon left. I could claim similar feelings among my compatriots during a similar period in time, yet stifled due to French dictatorship. But I don’t, because all the evidence points the other way.

7. Requests for the removal of the Parthenon Sculptures
7.1. The suggestion that the Parthenon sculptures be removed from the British Museum and sent to Athens is not new. Such a possibility was first mooted in Britain by Hugh Hammersley MP in the House of Commons debate of 7 June 1816. Calls from individual Greeks for their removal began in 1833. In 1965 the Greek Minister of Culture went so far as to call for all Greek antiquities to be located in Greece. After the fall of the military dictatorship in 1974, the Parthenon sculptures began to take on a new role as a symbol of the revived democracy and from 1982 were championed by the late Melina Mercouri as Greek Minister of Culture. Ever since, the removal of the Parthenon sculptures from London has been a feature of Greek Government policy, national and international.

Interesting. So even before some Greek individuals began arguing for their return, British politicians did? :wink:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

It would seem to me there could be some reason, such as greek friends to help these views. :wink:
Robert, town walls are no comparrison, despite the nicety of having them today. The Parthenon was aChurch before the Ottomans turned it into a islamic place of worship, and before that the Romans revered it as a monument of excellence.

Come on, you are constantly comparing apples with oranges here. There is little to compare wit hthe parthenon, so, really, your arguments are
kind of weak, in my opinion. Nothing personal, but you have no evidence of feeling of people from that time.
I have a family connection right back to that era, with the lineage. Sadly, there is none prior to the end of the Ottoman occupation. I wonder why... :? wink:

[Robert Vermaat]

Robert, town walls are no comparrison, despite the nicety of having them today. The Parthenon was aChurch before the Ottomans turned it into a islamic place of worship, and before that the Romans revered it as a monument of excellence.
Come on, you are constantly comparing apples with oranges here. There is little to compare wit hthe parthenon, so, really, your arguments are kind of weak, in my opinion. Nothing personal, but you have no evidence of feeling of people from that time.

Byron, I was not making a direct comparison between walls and the Parthenon - that's just a tad unfair from you. I was comparing the popular way of thinking about ancient and old monuments, which I think was a very apt comparison of how it was viewed 200 years ago, not as it is viewed today.

Was the Parthenon not a place where the Turks stored gunpowder? The blew it up, right? Was it a mosque before or afterwards?

I have a family connection right back to that era, with the lineage.

Are you saying that I can't argue about this at the same level because I don't have Greek blood? :?: hock: :|