Tents, to be linen or not to be linen.

[John Conyard]

Matthew, I don't believe anybody would be so crass as to doubt the use of leather tents in the early Imperial army. But as ever it would be rash to suggest leather tents were used to the exclusion of all others, or that all tents sheltered a full "tent party". While archaeological evidence may be lacking there is other less definite evidence in abundance.

Maurice doesn't decribe tents but the use of cloaks as tents as an unusual expediant. But iconography shows the use of small tents, not unlike those described by Maurice, which do seem typical of most armies.

[attachment=0:3ak46yq1]<!-- ia0 comitatustent2.jpg<!-- ia0 [/attachment:3ak46yq1]

[attachment=1:3ak46yq1]<!-- ia1 CIMG0763 - Copy.JPG<!-- ia1 [/attachment:3ak46yq1]

Evidence from literature and etmology gives us the use of other materials used to make tents.

We are faced with so many preconceptions about the Roman army, we surely need to keep an open mind on this one. We teach kids that Romans wore red, worked in tent parties of eight men, who were in a century of eighty soldiers, with their nice leather kit bags, with caligae and wearing segmentata over their leather jerkins. That legionaries used iron shield bosses and helmets with horse hair plumes, and carried their equipment on "T" shaped poles each one holding a cook pot, while living in forts all built to the same plan. We build up a view of a single "Roman Army", with every legion and legionary displaying the same uniformity, even speaking the same language and worshipping the same Olympians. Need I go on ..........

I am sure you appreciate this already.

[M. Demetrius]

35 pounds when dry (which doesn't seem to be very often

Since Moses only had two hands, I'm sure he left the third tablet up on Mt. Sinai, which included, "Thou shalt never bring home dry tents from thy campouts, except I grant thee exceptional grace." :wink:

[Orlirva]

Thanks!!
-Rick

[jkaler48]

Matthew, I don't believe anybody would be so crass as to doubt the use of leather tents in the early Imperial army. But as ever it would be rash to suggest leather tents were used to the exclusion of all others, or that all tents sheltered a full "tent party". While archaeological evidence may be lacking there is other less definite evidence in abundance.

Maurice doesn't decribe tents but the use of cloaks as tents as an unusual expediant. But iconography shows the use of small tents, not unlike those described by Maurice, which do seem typical of most armies.

[attachment=0:hfa0s7d3]<!-- ia0 comitatustent2.jpg<!-- ia0 [/attachment:hfa0s7d3]

[attachment=1:hfa0s7d3]<!-- ia1 CIMG0763 - Copy.JPG<!-- ia1 [/attachment:hfa0s7d3]

Evidence from literature and etmology gives us the use of other materials used to make tents.

We are faced with so many preconceptions about the Roman army, we surely need to keep an open mind on this one. We teach kids that Romans wore red, worked in tent parties of eight men, who were in a century of eighty soldiers, with their nice leather kit bags, with caligae and wearing segmentata over their leather jerkins. That legionaries used iron shield bosses and helmets with horse hair plumes, and carried their equipment on "T" shaped poles each one holding a cook pot, while living in forts all built to the same plan. We build up a view of a single "Roman Army", with every legion and legionary displaying the same uniformity, even speaking the same language and worshipping the same Olympians. Need I go on ..........

I am sure you appreciate this already.

Nice photos. What period are they from?

[John Conyard]

5th century, but you you see the same design through history. It is after all just a cover thrown over some uprights and a ridge pole.

[Medicus matt]

5th century, but you you see the same design through history. It is after all just a cover thrown over some uprights and a ridge pole.

The black and white picture is from the 6th century Vienna Genesis (scanned in from an old Pelican book on Byzantine Art...I've never seen a colour picture but I've been told that the tents are red).

Hard to tell but I think it's possible that this image shows a tent (with door flaps) rather than just a sheet thrown over uprights as seen in the earlier picture.

[John Conyard]

Sadly colour doesn’t tell us anything, as we have already discussed. White could mean alum tanned leather as was used for sails, or possibly cloth. Red could mean material as in a coloured awning, or coloured leather.

A tarpaulin placed over a short ridge poll will naturally fall in doors and there are many ways of using it. I like the way soldiers in the Ilias Ambrosiana appear to use such dog tents front to back to make long tunnel-like shelters.

[Medicus matt]

Sadly colour doesn’t tell us anything, as we have already discussed. White could mean alum tanned leather as was used for sails, or possibly cloth. Red could mean material as in a coloured awning, or coloured leather.

I didn't say colour did tell us anything, I'd just like to see a colour picture if anyone has one.
After first discovering that image in the old Pelican book on Byzantine art about ten years ago, I spent quite a while trying to track down a colour image to no avail.

[Caballo]

"On this thread, it was observed that the main quoted direct evidence that Romans used leather tents is a reference to “sub –pellibus”, However it was also observed that while pellibus may mean leather, the closer word for leather, and especially tanned leather, is corium. a better translation for pellibus might be pelt or hide.

This led to a discussion that perhaps the meaning was that legionaries carried a hide ‘blanket’ (think along the line of buffalo robes or a lightweight lambskin rug, rather than dense heavy cowhide) that might be used alone or combined to form field shelters"

I've finally been reading Ammianus in full. Heres a possibly relevant quote from XX!X, 4, 3-5, AD 372

"No one else had a pack animal or a tent, except the emperor for whom a rug and a rough blanket sufficed for such a shelter"

"quia nex sarcinale iumentum quisquam nec tabernaculam habuit, praeter principem, cui tapete et sisyra suffecerant pro tentorio."

Also- note- not "sub pellibus", which wouldn't make sense in the context of draping a rug / blanket over a ridge pole, but tabernaculam and tentorium.

Also, here is Ammianus praising Julian.

"5. Iulianus vero absque instrumento quotiens volvit evigilavit et nocte dimidiata semper exsurgens non e plumis vel stragulis sericis ambiguo fulgore nitentibus, sed ex tapete et sisyra, quam vulgaris simplicitas susurnam appellat, occulte Mercurio supplicabat, quem mundi velociorem sensum esse, motum mentium suscitantem theologicae prodidere doctrinae: atque in tanto rerum defectu explorate rei publicae munera curabat. "

"And when the night was half over, he always got up, not from a downy couch or silken coverlets glittering with varied hues, but from a rough blanket and rug, which the simple common folk call susurna."

Now "susurna" is translated as "A coarse blanket made from the fur or hide of an animal."

So.....we have simple tents made up of blankets. These blankets may even be made of a hide- perhaps sleeping under a cow hide, as some Viking reenactors do?

[John Conyard]

Interesting conclusions. I have slept under a cow hide, it is warm and wind proof, but I have never slept in one in the rain. Just how do Viking re-enactors sleep in cow hides? Do they make a tent out of it? I just roll myself up in it, but have never ever considered this a "Roman" method.

[Caballo]

My poor grammar- I meant I've seen Viking reenactors sleep under cowhides as a blanket, but not using it as a tent- sorry!

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

See this article: "New Light on Old Tents" by Carol van Driel-Murray.
Journal of Roman Military Equipment Studies, 1, 1990.

From the article:

"That leather was the main material for construction is clear from the fact that sub pellibus (under hides) is the normal phrase to denote a tent camp."

The article continues to explain that the majority of leather finds from Roman Army camp sites can be linked to tentage.

Wrong.

The Latin sentence just proves that Romans at one time camped under tents made of hides.
It does not mean they did not use linen or any other materials.

Linen has not been found, at least not in the North where the conditions are bad for conservation. Same with hemp. It is a dangerous thing to attest proof to anything written in original sources and Carol clearly did not use source criticism as any historian would have. She is an archaeologist, and a good one at that, but here she misses the point completely.

If i write about something and would use naval words which were used in the 18th century but which do not have the same meaning these days though still used in popular language, no historian in the future could prove that i was actually a sailor.

M.VIB.M.

[Caballo]

And in addition, as quoted above from Ammianus "quia nex sarcinale iumentum quisquam nec tabernaculam habuit, praeter principem, cui tapete et sisyra suffecerant pro tentorio"- using tabernaculum and tentorio for tent, not sub pellibus.

Its worth looking at the derivation of the word to get closer to what it may have meant to the Romans.

1/ Tentorio- Etymology of the Latin word tentorium
the Medieval Latin word tentorium (tent)
derived from the Latin word tentus
derived from the Latin word tendere (to stretch; pitch tent, encamp; pull tight; stretch, spread, extend)

Nothing to do with leather- everything to do with stretched material.

2 Tabernaculum- diminutive of taberna "hut, cabin, booth".

Taberna (tavern, inn; wood hut)
derived from the Latin root *traberna
derived from the Latin word trabs (tree trunk; log, club)

Again, nothing to do with the material, and everything to do with the shape.

I think the evidence both written and illustrated points towards leather and other materials being used for tents- including linen, and in necessity, woollen blankets.

[Magnus]

Very interesting...imagine we are all fussed about tents, but the Romans may have slept under mini-shelter halves of hide/fur.

[John Conyard]

The thought of sleeping in a furry tent is ........ weird. Kind of fun, but still weird.