SNAPPY SOLDIER TUNIC PLEAT

[John M McDermott]

I believe Holger Ratsdorf told me the problem with making accurate Roman clothes is the high quality of fabric that is necessary-quality that is almost impossible to find.

[Tarbicus]

Here's what I found in the Imagebase, and they do seem predominantly from Germany.
Publius Flavoleius Cordus - Mainz
Gaius Faltonius Secundus - Mainz
Genialis - Mainz
Unknown Miles - Mainz
Unknown Miles - Mainz
Quintus Petilius Secundus - Bonn
Firmus - Andernach
Hyperanor - Bingen-Bingerbrück
Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera - Bingen-Bingerbrück
Pintaius - Bonn
Unknown Miles - Cologne
Apart from those with date unknown they are also 1st Century.

Less definite and outside of Germany:
Balaterus - Cherchel, Algeria
Camomile Street Soldier - London - my favourite and done by an incredibly talented sculptor.

Just found another, Annaius Daverzus on Armamentarium;
Annaius Daverzus - Germany

Has anyone noticed how the vast majority of 1st C. soldiers in Germany in the above sculptures not only wear the heavily pleated tunics, but also wear two belts?

[Tarbicus]

I just started to make a new tunic from some lightwieght wool fabric. Wanting the snappy pleats I pinned it together and checked if it would work. Here's the result (excuse the poor quality of the photos):




Essentially, the tunic is huge, hanging as low as my mid-shins, and the width is from wrist to wrist. However, I think it resembles some of the better sculptures we've seen, and all it needed was to pull and gather the pleats up and through, under the cingulum. Once they are there they can be adjusted to enhance the effect very easily. I'll try with a cummerbund and fibulae next.

[Robert Vermaat]

Great stuff! That earned you a karma!

[John M McDermott]

Yes! This seems right on. What material did you use?

[Graham Sumner]

Tarbicus wrote:

(excuse the poor quality of the photos):

Hello Jim
They actually look like they were taken in the 1930's! Nevertheless they look good and so does the Tunic. What dimensions did you use?

I'll try with a cummerbund and fibulae next.

You could also try a belt which crosses over the left shoulder and under the right arm as seen in the Hadrianic Chatsworth sculpture.

Graham.

[Tarbicus]

Great stuff! That earned you a karma!

Cheers mate.

Yes! This seems right on. What material did you use?

John, it's a very plain square weave 100% wool fabric, but a lot thinner than the usual wool tunic fabric, which is what I was looking for after you mentioned that Roman wool fabrics were of very high quality (thanks for that John

What dimensions did you use?

Hi Graham, it's 60" wide, by 50" tall. I was looking at the Puteoli guardsman's tunic posted earlier, and decided for the tunic to gather and drape so much, as well as where the 'sleeves' end, his tunic must have been massive. Your own painting of the legionary under punishment inspired the size, cheers

You could also try a belt which crosses over the left shoulder and under the right arm as seen in the Hadrianic Chatsworth sculpture.

I'll have to hunt down an image of that. Thanks for the tip.

It's by no means finished.

On the down side, and a lot of you ain't gonna like this, it's yellow hock: Ahem. Sorry, but I'm toying with the old colour thing, but let's not go there here .... The material was from a batch from Spain (cost only £2 per metre so I couldn't resist), and unfortunately the red was sold to a museum. The vendor will notify me if he gets any more red, but it's unlikely.

I'll take and post better pictures when it's finished, and if anyone's eyes are offended by the colour I'll Photoshop it red for you :wink:

[Graham Sumner]

Tarbicus wrote:

I'll have to hunt down an image of that. Thanks for the tip

Hi Jim

No need to hunt for the image you should already have two in RMC1. One is a drawing from the original source the other a reconstruction.

Hi Graham, it's 60" wide, by 50" tall. I was looking at the Puteoli guardsman's tunic posted earlier, and decided for the tunic to gather and drape so much, as well as where the 'sleeves' end, his tunic must have been massive.

Have you checked this against the measurements from papyrus BGU 1564 and other tunics such as those from Nahal Hever to see how your reconstruction compares.

Graham.

[Tarbicus]

No need to hunt for the image you should already have two in RMC1. One is a drawing from the original source the other a reconstruction.

Just had a look, thanks, and there are also the Fayum portraits in 'Ancient Faces, Mummy Portraits from Roman Egypt', (Walker and Bierbrier). It would definitely help with the folds on the right side, as you say in your book.

Have you checked this against the measurements from papyrus BGU 1564 and other tunics such as those from Nahal Hever to see how your reconstruction compares.

Blimey According to the sizes I can find for BGU 1564 papyrus it's a bit too small if anything! I've not seen the Nahal Hever tunics, but going by the description I found in an old RAT post it's interesting that the wool fabric looks more like linen, which luckily is very much like the wool I used.

Many thanks.

[Tarbicus]

Graham, I also just found an old RAT post of yours, posted via Aitor;

Many surviving Roman tunics show evidence of alteration to shorten the length by means of tucks around the waist. Perhaps and I stress perhaps, these tucks were deemed unsightly and in the case of the military they were covered by waistbands.

By "tucks", do you mean they were actually sewn in place? That would be very interesting to try out if so.

[DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS]

Essentially, the tunic is huge, hanging as low as my mid-shins, and the width is from wrist to wrist.

[size=150:3fgv66da]M[/size]y new tunica is much the same, I took the dimensions out of Graham's book... massive huge. I wonder if I'll even need a subarmalis w/ it. :-0 Yow!! Anyway, it is interesting.

[Graham Sumner]

Hello Jim / Marsh

The dimensions given in BGU 1564 are of tent like proportions! Common sense would suggest that tunics of this size must have been altered to fit the wearer. Tertullian wrote that tunics should have been made shorter in the first place to avoid the need to gather up all the loose folds! De Pallio V

As for tucks an example of one tunic altered this way can be seen in Alex Croom's book 'Roman Fashion and Clothing', but I would advise anyone to look at some originals first. As you are in London Jim I would recommend a visit to the V&A. However a lot of other museums in Britain have collections of Roman period tunics or textile fragments and you will be surprised at how many there are hidden away. Remember to look in the Egyptian galleries and not the Roman and it would be well worthwhile to arrange a visit with a Curator to have a closer look.

Graham.

[Tarbicus]

Here's another photo with a lot more messing about trying different methods of pulling the tunic under the cingulum. I found pinching layers up and poking them at their corners up and under to be the most effective. Start from closer towards the middle and grab the next pleat a bit further towards your sides. TOnce you have some pushed under the cingulum you can then adjust them fairly easily by tucking and pulling them about, both below and above the belt.


I suspect it's something like knotting a bow tie - practice makes perfect.

I've only used an everyday waistbelt for the strap going from uder the right armpit and over the left shoulder, as suggested by Graham, and it works a treat to tidy up the right 'sleeve'. I've yet to widen the neckhole so it can be tied up at the back of the neck which help will get rid of the baggy left 'sleeve'.

Common sense would suggest that tunics of this size must have been altered to fit the wearer. Tertullian wrote that tunics should have been made shorter in the first place to avoid the need to gather up all the loose folds! De Pallio V

I have to say, although they obviously may well have been shortened, I find the tunic incredibly comfortable to wear. Perhaps Tertullian was a trend setter and thought the Rhineland was "so yesterday" :wink: However, it would serve as a nice large layer of extra blanket when under leather on campaign, with a sagum wrapped about you. More air would be trapped in the folds to help stay warm when the temperature dropped.

As you are in London Jim I would recommend a visit to the V&A. However a lot of other museums in Britain have collections of Roman period tunics or textile fragments and you will be surprised at how many there are hidden away.

Cheers Graham, I certainly shall.

One thing I'm wondering is whether the wool fabric I have is actually thin enough, as the sculptures do suggest that more folds might be possible.

[Graham Sumner]

Hello Jim

Gosh that is a bright yellow 8) is it computer enhanced by anychance?
Actually I have seen some wool dyed with Weld and that was not far off that shade!

I remember while doing my research on Roman tunic colours that I asked members of the Antonine Guard based in Scotland why they had adopted yellow tunics. Their answer was because they had heard that Caesar's Legion based in Alexandra had used that colour from locally obtained dye. Unfortunately they could not supply me with any ancient source and nether could I find one myself. So if anyone out there knows of it I would certainly like to hear of it and I guess so would the Antonine Guard.

Henry Bender in 'The World of Roman Costume', Eds: Sebesta and Bonfante. Wisconsin 1994. argued against the use of yellow as a masculine colour. "Chloreus, originally a priest of Cybele and therefore a eunuch, inappropriately assumes the role of war leader and wears a yellow chamlys".( Aeneid 11.777) p.150 Pliny the Elder (H.N. 21.46) adds " I see the most ancient honour of yellow is given entirely to women for their wedding veils". However the assertion that yellow was unsuitable for the military has been challenged by Sander van Dorst and yellow brown cloaks were certainly worn by Roman soldiers.

The soldiers in the Chatsworth relief are of Hadrianic date, so they have dispensed with sword baldrics and wear a single waist belt. Otherwise your tunic is looking good and I would certainly like to see the results of your other experiments. I have seen some Roman period wool fabric which is see through so yes the tunic could have been of finer material. well done Jim.

Graham.

[Tarbicus]

Thanks Graham, and thanks for the tips. I did actually tie up the back of the neck, after packing away the camera gear :roll: and it all falls into place nicely. I'll do it again and post a pic at the weekend.

Gosh that is a bright yellow Cool is it computer enhanced by anychance?

Just a straight import into Photoshop from the camera and the background blacked out, but the import may have saturated it a bit.

I have seen some Roman period wool fabric which is see through so yes the tunic could have been of finer material.

I'm going to try to find some finer fabric and see if that will give more folding.