Centurion Position in Battle

[Mark Hygate]

Mark,

Serious question. Say a century only has 47 men in it, after getting hammered in a couple previous battles and dealing with a flu epidemic. How would the box like formation work then?

Whilst noting that over 20% casualties is rather significant from what we read.......

The answer is obvious - some men may get redistributed if some conturbernia/files are particularly hard hit and some of the files will only be 4 and not even 5 in depth. The optio may have additional work to move men from one file to another when in combat; and it is more than likely that more inspiration is needed as things could go sideways sooner.

[Mark Hygate]

What I am guilty of, however, is a firm understanding in my mind of what I mean when I use the word 'command' or the word 'lead'

Isn't that what this argument has been about - imposing modern concepts of command upon an ancient culture? It seems to me that the function of the centurion is to 'lead' in the literal meaning of that word. That is why he has a distinctive crest on his helmet - so that those behind him can see and follow him. The soldier in battle does not want to be looking over his shoulder the whole time to see where his centurion is and what he is doing. ....................

No, certainly not - it's not where I am arguing from. There are jobs and tasks that have to be carried out - particularly the giving and receiving of orders. The fact that I bundle some of them up in 'command & control' doesn't change the need.

Like the signum indicates where the century is to those much further away - who really need to have some idea of how the battle is going if they are intending to perform any of the tactical moves we ascribe to the Romans; the centurions crest is to help other people identify him - not his own men. The men of a centurion's century, his maniple and his 'cohort' will all know exactly who he is - and be able to identify his voice. Unless he has been called away, he will never be more than 10 (short) paces away.

This is a very trite analogy, but it's somewhat apropos... A groom leads horses from a stable and harnesses them to a chariot - the driver 'directs' them with reins and whip and encourages them - both are necessary to accomplish the aim.

[Bryan]

[strike]So the frontage is always 10 files as a constant, with the depth of files (ranks) being adjusted, which comes out to seven files with 5 men and three with 4 men. Which files would get reinforced? The right side? Left? Center?
At what point would the frontage of 10 files decrease?
Why would the optio wait unless combat to adjust the contubernales? Wouldn't this be an issue during everyday life such as building a camp, pitching tents?
Why is it the optio's responsibility? Is he in charge of manpower?[/strike]
Disregard

[Bryan]

Throughout the ages, men of importance wore large shiny indicators of rank, great big chevrons sewed onto sleeves, colored sashes, bright red or Tyrrean colored cloaks, heavily embroidered epaulettes, etc. It helps to have some sort of identifiable feature to those around you, including your own men, as combat has a tendency to be loud and confusing.

This guy fought in a hoplite phalanx, where the leaders fought within the front ranks, without any other leaders riding behind the lines, with no one "managing" from the rear. He wore something on his helmet that helped those around him identify him instantly in the chaos of battle.

[img width=150]http://www.legionten.org/Workshops/LegatesWorkshop/Spartan/spartan22.jpg[/img]

An Etruscan terracotta mask, 6th Century BC, before manipular tactics, showing a transverse crest:

[img width=200]http://download.e-bookshelf.de/download/0000/7077/34/L-X-0000707734-0003075211.XHTML/images/9781849089371_img2.jpg[/img]

Negau typology helmet, Etruria, 6th-5th Century, during time period of hoplite-esque phalanx, with holder for fore and aft crest:

[img width=200]http://download.e-bookshelf.de/download/0000/7077/34/L-X-0000707734-0003075211.XHTML/images/9781849089371_img3.jpg[/img]

[Renatus]

Like the signum indicates where the century is to those much further away - who really need to have some idea of how the battle is going if they are intending to perform any of the tactical moves we ascribe to the Romans; the centurions crest is to help other people identify him - not his own men. The men of a centurion's century, his maniple and his 'cohort' will all know exactly who he is - and be able to identify his voice. Unless he has been called away, he will never be more than 10 (short) paces away.

Mark, I beg of you, read Vegetius 2.13, 2.22 and 3.5 on the function of standards and the centurion's crest, and the communication of orders in the hubbub of battle.

[Mark Hygate]

Like the signum indicates where the century is to those much further away - who really need to have some idea of how the battle is going if they are intending to perform any of the tactical moves we ascribe to the Romans; the centurions crest is to help other people identify him - not his own men. The men of a centurion's century, his maniple and his 'cohort' will all know exactly who he is - and be able to identify his voice. Unless he has been called away, he will never be more than 10 (short) paces away.

Mark, I beg of you, read Vegetius 2.13, 2.22 and 3.5 on the function of standards and the centurion's crest, and the communication of orders in the hubbub of battle.

I have read them - and I could, if I was really naughty, merely suggest that Vegetius has simply read the same things we can and drawn the same conclusions; but it doesn't mean they are the only one.

Yes, knowing where your centurion is, is very important - because you need to follow his instructions. But is all the 'bling' just there to show 'who' he is, or is it there to show 'what' he is? Most 'bling' throughout history has been for the latter - so that people can first see 'what' and then work out 'who'.

Equally, if you want to know what the disposition of your army is and the standards might indicate that - then you do indeed need those men that the standard represents at a distance to be there - and thus you do everything you can to ensure that (and that they also stay cohesive). I myself am particularly minded to note Caesar GW 2.25.

The symptom is not the cause.

Horns are noisy things too - so their use would be reserved so not as to confuse - and to attract more global attention. The number of sounds used would be very limited indeed. The centurions voice (his voice and not another's) can certainly carry as far as it needs to - so why use anything else?

[Renatus]

I could, if I was really naughty, merely suggest that Vegetius has simply read the same things we can and drawn the same conclusions

Come on, Mark. You know as well as I do that Vegetius had sources lost to us, Cato and Frontinus in particular.

The centurions voice (his voice and not another's) can certainly carry as far as it needs to - so why use anything else?

I still maintain that the centurion's voice, however stentorian, is liable to be lost in the general cacophony of battle - the clash of weapons, the cries of the wounded, the battle cries of both sides, the shouts of other centurions, the blare of trumpets - and the fact that those in the front line may be too busy preventing themselves being hacked to pieces to take much notice of much else. Calls on the tuba or cornu can cut through all that and they do not need to be complicated - 'advance', 'withdraw' or 'stand firm' could be quite enough.

[Mark Hygate]

....................... Calls on the tuba or cornu can cut through all that and they do not need to be complicated - 'advance', 'withdraw' or 'stand firm' could be quite enough.

Do you really believe that?

A 'standard' Consular army disposes of 240 centuries/half-maniples.......and that's assuming it's only them that have them, and not some with the Tribunes/Prefects or the Senior Tribune/Prefect commanding one of the legions, or the Consul himself. (Cannae - that's getting on for 1,000 of them)

Do you really believe that a man fighting will have any idea at all whether it's 'his' cornu making the noise or the one to the left, or the right, or behind in one of the other lines - or even 5-10 maniples away or on the other wing.

Is that credible? I for one do not think it is.

For my part the numbers (although dear old Polybius doesn't specify - we know they are there somewhere as he mentions them in his camp treatise) strongly suggest 20 per legion which would equate to 2 (the minimum sensible number) per 'standard/future' slice/cohort - and I would then guess it would be something like: 2 staying with the local Tribune; 1 to the Senior Tribune (for 5 total); and 5 to the Consul (for 20 for him). Moreover I would expect them to be running and carrying the more complex orders probably more than tooting their horns.....but that's just sensible guess work.

What we can read today allows us to infer some things, but many that we discuss can only be guessed at. We really should make some of those guesses as good as we can.

[Nathan Ross]

For my part the numbers... strongly suggest 20 per legion

Inscription CIL VIII, 18050, dated AD203, was dedicated by an optio and 34 cornicines of Legio III Augusta.

That might mean that every other century (more or less) had a cornu, or that only half the legion's cornicines were involved with the dedication (or were present in camp at that point!). Vegetius (2.2) states that the tuba and cornu gave different signals.

(this info comes from the Ross Cowan AW article I mentioned before, btw)

[Renatus]

Mark,

Is that credible? Yes, it is. You are assuming that centuries and maniples are independent units. They are not; they operate as part of an army and the horn signals that I propose are directed at the army as a whole, not to individual units. Read your Vegetius again (Veg. 3.17). The battle-line can only do two things: repel or rout the enemy. Any complex manoeuvres are to be accomplished by the reserves and the conveying of orders to them can, indeed, be done by means of runners or dispatch riders. The centurions of those units might well shout orders to their men but, even so, many will still probably just be watching and following. As Vegetius says, if you start messing about with the line, you throw everything into confusion.

[Macedon]

The Byzantine manuals insist that caution should also be given to the number of instruments (trumpets or drums) to be used when such use was necessary to avoid confusion. It is suggested that only one voucinon should be sounded from the center of each phalanx (line of battle), where its commanding officer should also be posted. Of course this does not mean that there were not more instruments present, only that in the emperor's opinion, very few should be allowed to sound during battle.

In case of external noise that was more than usual (winds, streams etc), then 2 more voucina should be used, one in each extremity of the line.

I know of course that the manuals are some centuries off, but I still think that Byzantine tactics may be the closest thing we have to more ancient Roman practices and it is my opinion that we should be considering them when we have to make assumptions.

In support of Michael, Procopius writes that in times more ancient than his, the Roman army could sound two signals with a single type of trumpet, one to order the soldiers to advance against the enemy and one to retreat to the camp. This knowledge had been lost in his time and therefore, during some skirmishes outside Auxium, he advised Belisarius to use the cavalry trumpet to sound the attack and the infantry trumpet to sound the recall. Leo also advised that the men should be trained to distinguish the sounds of the trumpet used for the attack and those produced by the trumpet used for the recall.

(if you need references ask me, I do not have them at hand at this time)

[Vindex]

........but that's just sensible guess work...

Really? I do not consider it more possible for runners to actually get to their recipients any easier than sounding a trumpet/horn. If it was easier, why have the signals conveyed by instruments in the first place? It may be sensible to you, but not to me.

...but many that we discuss can only be guessed at. We really should make some of those guesses as good as we can.

We are all allowed to make guesses as best as we can based on the information we have available to us. Just because you disagree with the "guesses" made by others, you should not dismiss them by assuming yours are better, which this infers.

Perhaps you should also rethink the use of the emticons in your posts; to me, at least, they add nothing constructive.

[Frank]

Do you really believe that a man fighting will have any idea at all whether it's 'his' cornu making the noise or the one to the left, or the right, or behind in one of the other lines - or even 5-10 maniples away or on the other wing.

I am afraid, every centurio having a cornicen could lead to a lot of confusion. Imagine every 30m a cornicen is trumpeting another signal.

I personally guess, that the cornicens were with the tribunes and the legate, if we look at a 1 legion army. What was the role of these 6 tribunes on the battlefield? Actually we don't know. But it is a good guess that they led units bigger than 1 cohort. I could imagine that they led the left wing, center, right wing and reserve. These alone are 4 tribunes to lead the infantry.

How should this tribune now communicate with the 12-18 centurions of his 2-3 cohorts / wing? If the centurions fought from the front, he had no chance. Between him and the centurions were 8 men fighting. And how to coordinate all these centurions all together and at the same time? Couriers do not work here. They work between legate and tribune behind the lines, but never between tribune and centurions.

But signals might work if a tribune wants to steer his entire wing. And for a centurio it should be easier to distinguish, if this signal comes from the center tribune or the left-wing tribune. As we already discussed, for a centurio a loud voice should work, for 60-80 men standing not more than 15 m away from him.

But again, this is all guesswork or logical conclusion.

[ValentinianVictrix]

How many of the posters here are ex-military? Can they have some input on how they drilled using both voice commands and bugle calls. From my own military experience when we were drawn up in squads and divisions (I was in the Royal Navy) There was only one person who issued commands on the parade ground, and only one bugler who gave commands via the bugle. As Michael has rightly pointed out, if your drawn up on a battlefield you need as few as possible people issuing commands to the army as possible, by whatever format those commands are going to be issued by. And commands were also given by doing something with the standards although its not clear what those commands would have been as a standard really can only be dipped forward, back, left or right.

It was also clear that although the 'barbarian' tribes the Roman's fought also used verbal and musical commands in the manner of their Roman opponents, they must of been different because they did not cause confusion in the Roman ranks or those such as Ammianus who related battle accounts would surely have commented as such.

[Robert Vermaat]

How many of the posters here are ex-military? Can they have some input on how they drilled using both voice commands and bugle calls.

I could, but is that relevant? In my case there was never a deafening din of batle which would make the sound of bugles (or the voice of the commanding officer) difficult to hear.