Coppicing trees for spear shafts and other tools

[Hibernicus]

The important factor is that coppicing was a known and practiced method of forest agriculture and management across Europe for thousands of years. We know that the Romans used coppicing.

I think that we all agree that
- you can use a large diameter trunks to make pilum shafts but it is simpler and easier to use small diameter trunks;
- that there we times when an Army on campaign had to use whatever resources were at hand.

Did non-Roman Gauls have enough coppiced woodlands to supply Caesar or themselves wit spear shafts during Caesar's conquest? I don't think that's likely.

Did Caesar in planning for the conquest of non-Roman Gaul plan far enough ahead to have a supply of wood harvested and stored for pilum shafts? ... and was it coppiced? Seems highly likely.

Is it likely that after occupation that there would be contracts ( or some form of planning ahead) with local sources/suppliers for a quantity of wood for many uses including pilum shafts. .... and likely from coppiced wood since shaft sized poles can be grown in as little as a year?

[Robert]

Right, well the idea is clearly that it's a very practical practice in long-occupied areas such as the Italian peninsula. Certainly it requires long-term worked land as well or at least an area that'll be tended for a decade or more. So weapons hafting comint OUT of Italia might have been coppiced for reasons of practicality more than suitability, but those made where a give legion was stationed or campaigning hardly seem likely to have been more than just from felled trees- goodness knows an army would need enough of those for building, firewood, charcoal, etc. That's always been my issue with the idea of coppiced hafts- there just seems to have been no need since the forests were FULL of trees and coppicing's main reason for being is land management, not production of proper spear hafts :wink:

Perhaps we are getting things confused. I agree with Sean that both systems were used. It takes hazel and ash about 7 years to produce a proper pilum shaft. For a hasta or socketed pilum, 5 years will do the job. Ash does not have heartwood as does oak and I am basing the years on observations from the stand of coppiced trees I manage near my home and from which I cut my staves. Coppicing was and is done to harvest poles for use in ovens and homefires and a range of domestic uses (case in point the way they build their walls), rather then as a landmanagement technique. Small stands are still present around many farms here, dating back to as recently as the 1900's. These are called "convenience groves", situated close to the farms. There are four types of coppicing recognized, each based on the type of tree coppiced and belonging to different growth environments. Oak can also be coppiced.
I agree Europe was not densely populated, but densely enough to feed the Roman army for years. Any small settlement would have their stands of wood. Of course, the hills were heavily wooded, these were the source for prime timber, as the agriculture was on the flat plains near water and valleys. Ceasar would have no problem finding a great supply of wood for building around any settlement or town. These woods, by the way, were used for grazing the pigs on acorns and beechnuts, so provided far more then just building materials but fodder as well. Then as well, they would have frequently encountered stands of coppiced trees to stock up from.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

You guys all have valid points, and I think Robert makes an excellent case. While it may have been less so in deeper Germania, we can deduce from the sources of the times that there was proven agriculture to supply Romans with grain, and wood from a variety of sources.
What has me wondering tho', is what would the situation be like in places like Parthia, where there was possibly less available wood. Would explain why the Romans were having a harder time against these people, as replacement weapons and equipment were harder to obtain on campaigns, with everything having to be brought in from farther away!
ie Antony and his failures in the east.

[Hibernicus]

This has turned into an excellent thread! My thanks to Robert for his insights, knowledge and input... also to Brennius especially for using coppiced wood!

[brennivs - tony drake]

I can show you a Google earth image of the coppice if it is allowed on the forum :?:
Regards Brennivs

[Hibernicus]

Yes! Map good.

[brennivs - tony drake]

Hibernicvs as you can see it has been encroched on by farming, but lucky it is in a valley with a stream no good for farming

The road on the left is a old railway line this is how I get to it.I had excellent pics of the coppice but I carnt find them so will post if I do.
Regards Brennivs

[Robert]

Salve all!

The site Tony shows is just the thing!! Land unsuitable for farming but with good growth condition such as a steam are excellent places for ash and other readily coppiced woods to grow. This was also much the situation in the Low Lands (Neder landen or the Netherlands). The soggy lands near a farm or setllement were used for coppicing, often on small parallel dykes thrown up. These old coppices are readily recognizable by the depressions of the ditches between the trees.

[brennivs - tony drake]

Robert that is exactly what its like steep sided in places ,I have found the pics but mostly of the little bridges that were built for the stream will post them though.
Regards Brennivs

[brennivs - tony drake]

Just scand the pics ,as you will see it has a lot of atmosphere.



Regards Brennivs

[Robert]

Those trees are not doing your cultural heritage any good! It looks like its harvesttime, soon Wood for bows and shafts!

[brennivs - tony drake]

Yes Robert we plan to invaded in November ,the funny thing is they is no date for these bridges so I will explane in the future ,due to the historic nature of the area but will post of our harvest.
Regards Brennivs

[Robert]

Perhaps you can even get a small grant from the National Trust. Most likely, the local Heritage Society will have data on these works. Also, elderly folks could point you back at the last known use of the coppiced area. In Holland, which is much soggier :lol: , there are no neat bridges like this, mostly all were of wood and have gone with time, often no more then a few logs laid side by side. This looks like wel dressed stonework, someone realy put in an effort. Looks well worth saving, they may be well older then you think, perhaps going as far back as Medieval.

[Hibernicus]

I'm just sitting here.. plotting.... gotta get my hands on coppiced wood... found sources here in The States.... not like I can just drive down the road like you bastardii... Folks want to charge money...yikes!! pricey! ... especially when you add in shipping... ....cheaper to drive there and back... looking into making a stop or two on the way back from the Lafe AD 43 event in Arkansas in March 2008.... local sources? Nil, so far, but may have landed a source of green wood...

Great pics by the way!

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Those are Roman bridges!(he says with total coviction) just look at the arches! :lol: 8)