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Chariovalda · 03-23-2004, 07:52 PM

Hello Uwe, 
 
I'm afraid I have to agree with Vorty on this. My own native city, for instance, Deventer in the Netherlands, has an alternative Latin name "Daventria". However, it only came into existence in the 8th century. The Latin name is a later embellishment. 
 
The same also happened with family names during the Renaissance; for instance, one of my ancestors was called Petraeus, which, if I'm correct, is sort of a latinisation of "Petersen"...I suspect the ancestor responsible for this had delusions of renaissance humanist grandeur... 
 
I clicked on the URL you posted. Interesting, you can actually buy a DIY model of a piece of Roman artillery (and not tiny either, it weighs half a kilo!). 
But a warning: do NOT trust in theories based on a facile amateur interpretation (modern or ancient) of the origins of a placename. Better to consult a professional philologist / linguist. I'm not sure, but Thiudareiks Flavius (Tim O'Neill) might get the closest of all the people on this Forum. 
 
We've had some funny theories down here in Germania Secunda as well. For instance, some claim that Vlissingen in the province of Zeeland (Flushing in English) was founded by...Ulysses (Odysseus). 
Ulyssingen=Vlissingen, or so some people thought (or still think)... 
 
Ah well...what is usually remarkable about these theories is that they often "elevate" the hometown or home region of the person who proposes the theory... 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=chariovalda>Chariovalda</A> at: 3/23/04 8:56 pm

Daniel S Peterson · 03-23-2004, 08:51 PM

Robert, it is clear that you do not comprehend the point I was trying to make. "Thousands" of Romans simply didn't "beam down" into the German ambush point. They had to walk into it, on a forest trail, probably not more than four abreast and from my own experience on extended Roman marches, at least a two meter interval between each rank. So even if we dismiss the fact that there would have been some kind of scouts or vanguard, and envision the head of the Roman column blundering directly into the German earthwork (with a pack mule improbably in the lead, there would have been scarcely over one thousand men in the so called "ambush". If a larger body of Romans were ambushed, the broken equipment/weapons finds must extend for many kilometers, and they do not. 
 
The excavators of Kalkriese believed from the start that they had found the Varus battlefield, and slanted all of their interpretations to that effect. But the artifacts tell a different story. 
 
I did not claim there was a Roman "fort" at the center of the artifact area, but a "station", which probably consisted of some rude huts (postholes) and tents. This area is identified the the pottery, nails, furniture parts etc. The Earthwork was a later feature, hastily built when news was received of an impending German attack. It really does seem a lot like the Rourke's Drift scenario of 1879. 
 
The notion of a German earthworkmbankment makes absolutely no sense because it is logical the Romans would have some scouts or vanguard (even if suppposedly demoralized), and this feature would have given away the ambush, the column would have stopped, and went into a defensive mode. 
 
One does not have to have "been there during the battle" to come to these conclusions. One only has to interpret the evidence unfettered by the Germanic "duty" to turn a small "incident' at a Roman post station (which the Romans seem to have succesfully defended), into the fabled "last stand of Varus". Geesh, no wonder you love Lord of the Rings.... Pure Fantasy. 
 
Dan

**Robert Vermaat** · 03-24-2004, 12:47 AM

Hi Dan, 
I thought discussing meant reading and reacting. Well, again then. 
I comprehend your point, which is that no such ambush could take place with a column of Romans marching into it four abreast. I agree. No-one says they did. 
My point (which you seem to have missed) was that the Kalkriese 'choking point' was no ambush, it was the narrow neck where the Romans had to fight themselves through to get to the west. If not, they would have ended up in the Big Moor, as some obviously did, judging from the finds. Most of thes finfds occur at the 'choking point', where the Cherusci and allies would have had a relatively easy defence against the Romans, who because of the narrow space would not have been able to use their tactical advantage. 
 
So, again, I mentin no ambush where all those Romans were 'beamed into', nor does anyone else afaik. 
 
I disagree that the artifacts tell a different story - prove it! All the experts disagree with you. And I challenge you to react to my other point, that your 'remains of a non-military post' (or whatever) originated when Germanicus and his army re-visited the site a few years after the battle, mule and all. 
 
Geesh, no wonder you love dragons. All huffin' and puffin'. 
 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert

Daniel S Peterson · 03-24-2004, 05:20 PM

Robert, 
The Choke Point theory is just as weak as the "ambush". Doesn't it occur to you that if the head of the column was being destroyed, the rest might turn around an go another direction, and in the process drop some equipment for archaeologists to find. Or why not sweep down and destroy the muddling column while its "head" is at the chokepoint. Then there would have been Roman military finds like those at Kalkriese, only much more, extending several kilometers along the Roman route of march, (and what will be found when the actual remanants of the Varus army are eventually discovered). This is the problem with the whole "Kalkriese-is- the-Varus-Battlefield Fantasy. There is no archaeological evidence of a Roman column coming from anywhere -- period. Every trace of them "vanish" in every direction, and we both know the excavators have left no stone unturned to find this "smoking gun". You will recall how Aitor mentioned how archaeologist could trace the route of the Roman column on that battle in Spain, and the same should have been possible at Kalkriese, IF a Roman column actually marched there from someplace. 
 
Sorry, Robert, but all of the evidence points to the Romans already being at Kalkriese (the campsite and hasty defense embankment), and it was there that the Germans attacked. 
 
This does not diminish the site's importance as a true location of German-Roman conflict in the Augustan period, but to unashamedly pass this minor skirmish at a Roman outpost off as "The last stand of Varus", is a scandalous hoax, and one milking the German taxpayers of millions of euros with the justification that this is "Germannic Holy Ground". 
 
Dan

**Robert Vermaat** · 03-24-2004, 06:52 PM

Sorry Dan, 
But all of the evidence points to you unwilling to see anything other than your own point. Not even if they found the body of Varus you would budge, you would probably insist that he was taken there from the 'true' site, only for those pesty nationalistic Germans of today to persist in their 'travesty' and keep insisting that this was a "minor skirmish at a Roman outpost" and "a scandalous hoax", again without any proof. 
 
OK, I'm done. 
 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert

Daniel S Peterson · 03-24-2004, 07:29 PM

Robert, 
 
Some people "cannot see the forest for the trees", and I believe this is the case here. Only time will tell who is really right. I hope the positive proof that the Varus disaster occured farther to the East, and closer to the Weser, (just as Tacitus says), will be revealed just before all of the great celebrations planned at Kalkriese in 2009, so the press can have their field day, and the promoters regarded as fools or charlatans. Then, maybe, people will intelligently reappraise the Kalkriese material, and see the true tale that the artifacts tell us. In a year's time, or perhaps a little less, you will see why I have remained so firm in my convictions. 
 
Dan

Vincula · 03-25-2004, 12:09 PM

Well, excuse me for intruding on this personal argument, but I thought the point of this bulletin board was to share knowledge, in order to get closer to the truth. 
Call me naive, but to sit on information until it is most convenient to reveal it seems immoral. More so, to wait until it will cause most damage to those we disagree with.

Chariovalda · 03-25-2004, 04:14 PM

Alas, sometimes it is not about the truth, but about who is right - which is not exactly the same.

DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS · 03-25-2004, 04:45 PM

Dan, 
Just out of curiosity, what does it matter if it IS the Varusschlacht battlefield or not? They have found some stunning artifacts there and why get so worked up about it? And how can you be so sure? (I know, I am gonna regret asking this question, but...) 
 
Also... 
Quote:<hr>...will be revealed just before all of the great celebrations planned at Kalkriese in 2009, so the press can have their field day, and the promoters regarded as fools or charlatans.<hr> 
 
It sounds like you have a personal stake in this... why? 
 
Quote:<hr>In a year's time, or perhaps a little less, you will see why I have remained so firm in my convictions.<hr> 
 
Okay Dan, why all this cryptic talk. IF you know something, tell the world... this is one of those things I truly hate about the world of academe -- this secretive BS... KNOWLEDGE SHOULD BE FREE! 
DMV DECIMUS MERCATIUS VARIANUS 
 
LEGIO IX HISPANA 
NorCal Chapter 
 
Netscape Aim/AOL screen name: Sturmkatze 
 
Alteris renumera duplum de quoquo tibi numeraverunt.

Daniel S Peterson · 03-26-2004, 12:35 AM

As much as we might like, sometimes it is the wish of the owners of artifacts, or the discoverer of sites, that this information not be revealed until they are ready. Just tonight I was furnished photos of an important new type of Roman helmet, and although I may use it eventually in a book, the owner does not want it made public yet. I should not have mentioned the new Augustan Roman fort yet, for it will not be officially released for several more days, but I got the dates wrong. A friend of mine could not study the Roman military artifacts from Dura Europas for Simon James had the exclusive "rights" to do so because of his book. These are realities we must accept. 
 
As for Kalkriese, yes, I do take offense when supposed scientists misrepresent a site and its finds for the sake of $$$$. And why is it so important to the German psyche to sanctify the Varus battlefield and "celebrate" the 2000th anniversary of the event? What other country in the world would even consider making a 'hero' out of such a vile creature as Arminius? Why is it such a good thing that the Germans refused to join the rest of the civilized Western world 2000 years ago, and instead, be largely responsible for bringing about the fall of that civilization and a half millennia of "dark ages"? (And in many fields, it would take well over a thousand years for Europe to fully recover.) "Celebrating" this is just as sick as celebrating Hitler's Birthday, though this too, I suspect, may be celebrated with equal ardor on its 2000th anniversary. There was a reason why there are no graves today to mark the burial places of the most notorious nazi leaders. It was to insure that these places would not become shrines to future generations of nazis. Kalkriese is fast becoming a "shrine" to the original "proto-nazi", who seems to be regarded in some circles as Germany's greatest hero. 
 
Dan

DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS · 03-26-2004, 05:46 AM

Quote:<hr>Just tonight I was furnished photos of an important new type of Roman helmet, and although I may use it eventually in a book, the owner does not want it made public yet.<hr> 
 
This is exactly the kind of thing I mean. Another good reason for reenacting WWI, at least here, you can find most of the info if you can read the language. This bites! 
 
As for the Germans needing to glorify Arminius, who knows. Dan, you know that the Germans need things to believe in, whether it is a strong leader or an environmental cause. That's how they are. Hell,you've lived there for how long now? It'd probably drive me crazy. I think I'd rather live in Tuscany or France and drink wine and not worry so much. Whilst I dearly love the Germans, I am not one and doubt I'd be happy living there. Besides, they'd spaz at me for saying that the world would be better if the Central Powers won the Great War... however, I digress and will soon feel the hobnailed caligae of Mon Capitane Cline on my backside if I keep on this track... 
 
BTW, Dan your e-mail is bouncing... is theres something wrong w/ it? If so, how about enabling the messaging on this so we can talk off the board and not agimitate the others... 
DMV DECIMUS MERCATIUS VARIANUS 
 
LEGIO IX HISPANA 
NorCal Chapter 
 
Netscape Aim/AOL screen name: Sturmkatze 
 
Alteris renumera duplum de quoquo tibi numeraverunt.

Chariovalda · 03-26-2004, 08:15 AM

Quote:<hr>What other country in the world would even consider making a 'hero' out of such a vile creature as Arminius? Why is it such a good thing that the Germans refused to join the rest of the civilized Western world 2000 years ago, and instead, be largely responsible for bringing about the fall of that civilization and a half millennia of "dark ages"? (And in many fields, it would take well over a thousand years for Europe to fully recover.) "Celebrating" this is just as sick as celebrating Hitler's Birthday<hr> 
 
Well, that doesn't sound unreasonable... 
 
Just a quote from Tacitus, whom Dan thinks is reliable: 
 
"Assuredly he was the deliverer of Germany, one too who had defied Rome, not in her early rise, as other kings and generals, but in the height of her empire's glory, had fought, indeed, indecisive battles, yet in war remained unconquered. He completed thirty-seven years of life, twelve years of power, and he is still a theme of song among barbarous nations, though to Greek historians, who admire only their own achievements, he is unknown, and to Romans not as famous as he should be, while we extol the past and are indifferent to our own times." 
 
Tacitus, Annales, Book II 
 
Actually, I don't see any difference between, say, Vercingetorix and Boudicca on the one hand, and Arminius (they all three have these ghastly 19th century "heroic" statues erected to them). Well, just one: Arminius won (and was killed later on by his own people. Well, that was an occupational hazard for many ancient leaders...). That explains part of the additional hoopla, everybody loves a winner, especially against a supposedly superior enemy. 
 
And Dan, just one thing: if you read the - serious - German publications at all, one thing that strikes immediately is the almost palpable feeling you get that the scientists involved in the research are being "politically correct", steering away from an old-fashioned nationalistic and triumphalist interpretation of the finds and the Varic war in general. In fact, political correctness is one of the reasons that ghastly museum was built, in order to stress the nastiness of war (all it does is provoke an ardent desire in me to shoot the architect and the people who approved the design. Must be my bad Germanic genes cropping up...). 
 
You can't hold the scientists involved responsible for the fact that the Varus battle (and hence the Kalkriese site) sometimes draws the attention of "conservative-nationalistic" circles, as well as that of (dissenting or otherwise) hobby historians and archaeologists with an excess of local patriotism and a lack of scientific objectivity. I mean, the phenomenon is not unknown in the USA, with all those people in the 'ole South (playfully?) yearning for the good 'ole days of the Confederacy. 
 
By the way, I suppose that the helmet you're referring to, it doesn't happen to be in the hands of a proper archaeologist or archaeological institute, does it? An unreported find, an unreported site? Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=chariovalda>Chariovalda</A> at: 3/26/04 8:01 pm

Goffredo · 03-26-2004, 11:40 AM

Armimius was awarded knightship and was a friend of Varus. He plotted all while accepting dinner invitations and behaving properly at Varus' parties. Imaging him smiling and making small talk with the roman governor and guests all the while just thinking: "boy am I fooling these guys good!"

Chariovalda · 03-26-2004, 04:46 PM

Quote:<hr>Armimius was awarded knightship and was a friend of Varus. He plotted all while accepting dinner invitations and behaving properly at Varus' parties. Imaging him smiling and making small talk with the roman governor and guests all the while just thinking: "boy am I fooling these guys good!"<hr> 
 
Yup, the Romans had taught him well. Who says the Germans were completely immune to the seductive qualities of Roman civilisation? 
 
The lesson, of course, was: be as cunning and as ruthless as the Romans. And if you want to win, be more cunning and more ruthless if you can. 
While some Romans may have cried "foul", I think Tacitus' judgment stands. 
 
Which is not the same as the claims of the 19th century German nationalists about Arminius as a "heroic liberation hero and father of the German nation." 
Pfah! What German nation? Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=chariovalda>Chariovalda</A> at: 3/26/04 8:05 pm

Uwe Bahr · 03-27-2004, 05:15 PM

Dan quoted: 
 
Quote:<hr>Just tonight I was furnished photos of an important new type of Roman helmet, and although I may use it eventually in a book, the owner does not want it made public yet.Just tonight I was furnished photos of an important new type of Roman helmet, and although I may use it eventually in a book, the owner does not want it made public yet.<hr> 
 
Dan, I have a copy of Henry Russell Robinson's "Arms and Armour of Imperial Rome" and collected all photos of Roman helmets that I could get from other sources (the books of Marcus Junkelmann, Klumbach, Garbsch, ...) and I think I know nearly all types of Roman helmets. Of course Your remarks make me very curious. Are You authorized at least to tell the community what kind of helmet the new and important Roman helmet is? Does it really not fit with Robinson's classification? Can You recognize from the photos whether it is an infantry or cavalry or so called cavalry sports or officer's helmet? 
 
Greets Uwe

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