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The Immortals
#61
Quote:@Vishtaspa

Quote:That of Dick Davis, perhaps?

Quote:A well documented and modern research about Herodotus/Xenophon and Shahnameh would be great and provide us many clues.

Somehow no one sees the need for looking at such an important work. It seems to me that the established theories about the rise and fall of the Persians are final and no one cares to research further or go into another direction...

Regards
well not quite true as of lately
I know that for example Prof Olbrycht is doing such work (but his work is in German and Polish) and the last book from prof Drews does the same thing - critical look at sources and new interpretations
Darayavaush Smile aka Bachmat
bachmat66 (Dariusz T. Wielec)
<a class="postlink" href="http://dariocaballeros.blogspot.com/">http://dariocaballeros.blogspot.com/
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#62
Quote:Somehow no one sees the need for looking at such an important work. It seems to me that the established theories about the rise and fall of the Persians are final and no one cares to research further or go into another direction...

Regards

I completely agree. I think that, fortunately, scholars like Pierre Briant, Heleen Sancisi-Weerdenburg (with the Achaemenid History journal), Josef Wieserhoefer etc are working in the rigth direction, and leaving behind the old fashioned and too helenocentric persian history.

For example, in his very interesting book Darius dans l'ombre d'Alexander (Darius behind Alexander's shadow) Pierre Briant reconstructs and "reinvents" Darius III figure, taking many material from iranian sources, like Ferdowsi and medieval persian literature.
But many modern and very influential stuff like Persian fire or 300 are steps backwards (much more 300, Persian fire is not bad at all, but outdated)

czolem, Dariusz, thanks for the link!. I knew already Warner translation in the web, but it's very tiring read such a work in the screen...

PD: Darayavaush, I was writing while you sent the last post, this stuff looks great, have you a bibliographical reference? I can't read polish but yes a little german, slowly.

regards, khoda hafez
"paraita karam hamiçiyam haya mana naiy gaubataiy avam jata"
"Go forth and crush that rebellious army, wich does not call itself mine!" King Darius at Behistun

Vishtaspa/Inyigo
Reply
#63
hey,
Marek J. Olbrycht -
some fragmentary stuff on google eg
http://books.google.com/books?id=jLOlAw ... 87NbgoiUcs

his Polish book on Achaemenids is titled Aleksander Wielki i swiat iranski (Alexander the Great and the Iranian World),

some of his works
"Some problems of the Historical Geography of Turkmenistan in the Hellenistic and Arsacid Periods" (Problemy istoricheskoi geografii Turkmenistana v ellinisticheskii i arshakidskii periody, in Russian) (1992)
In: Annanepesov, M. A. (ed.), Merv v drevnei i srednevekovoi istorii Vostoka III: Merv i parfianskaia epokha
Ashgabad: 1992, p. 21-22.

"Some remarks on Hellenistic influence upon the fortification of Northeastern Iran in the Arsacid period" (1992-1993)
Folia Orientalia, 1993, vol. 29, p. 131-151.

"Die Kultur der Steppengebiete und die Beziehungen zwischen Nomaden und der selßhaften Bevolkerung (Der arsakidische Iran und die Nomadenvölker)" (1996)
In: Wiesehöfer, Josef (ed.), Das Partherreich und seine Zeugnisse - The Arsacid Empire : Sources and Documentation. Beiträge des Internationalen Colloquiums, Eutin (27.-30. Juni 1996). Historia-Einzelschriften, 122
Stuttgart: Franz Steiner Verlag, 1998, p. 11-43.

"Vardanes contra Gotarzes II. - einige Ãœberlegungen zur arsakidischen Politik ca. 40 - 51 n. Chr." (1997)
Folia Orientalia, 1997, vol. 33, p. 81-100.

"Parthian King's Tiara - Numismatic Evidence and Some Aspects of Arsacid Political Idiology" (1997)
In: Notae Numismaticae - Zapiski Numizmatyczne
Krakow: 1997, vol. 2, p. 27-61.
Abstract: Tiary wladcow partyjskich - swiadeclwa nnmi/matyc/ne i niektore aspekty polityc/.nrj ideologii Arsakidrfw.

Generally a good paper but unfortunately most of the conclusions are based on out-dated evidence. For instance, when reference is made to various Parthian tiaras, the author uses the information in Sellwood's catalogue, not knowing that since 1980 we have had a number of unrecorded types depicting new variants of kings' tiaras.

Parthia et ulteriores gentes : die politischen Beziehungen zwischen dem arsakidischen Iran und den Nomaden der eurasischen Steppen (1998)
Munich: tuduv-Verlagsgesellschaft, 1998, 337 p.
Abstract: See reviews: C. Lippolis, Parthica 3 (2001), page 247; I.V. Piankov, Vestnik Drevnei Istorii 2002, no. 2. 219-228 (in Russian); J.D. Lerner, Archäologische Mitteilungen aus Iran und Turan, 34, 2002, 465-469 (in English); M. Schuol, Klio 84, 2002, 580-581 (in German); Everett L. Wheeler, Orbis Terrarum 6, 2000, 272-274 (in English).

Excerpt from Wheeler's review: "Olbrycht’s study restores a much-needed balance to perceptions of Parthia by demonstrating that the Parthian Kernland, Hyrcania and southern Parthyaia, retained its significance throughout the history of the Parthian Empire, and that Parthian concern for its northern and northeastern frontiers equalled, if it did not exceed, its interest in Mesopotamia, Armenia, and the West. As the Parthians’ economic and power base never lay exclusively in Mesopotamia, Parthian strategy in sacrificing Mesopotamia and Ctesiphon (even if reluctantly) to Roman intrusions and its ability to rebound from western inroads becomes more explicable. Olbrycht has thoroughly exploited the archaeological evidence - much of it recent - for Turkestan, Margiana, and Central Asia. Now much of this literature from areas of the former Soviet Union, hitherto linguistically and/or physically inaccessible to Western scholars, can be digested and appreciated. Numismatic evidence is also profitably used along with Chinese sources, as Olbrycht fearlessly assembles his version of the various Völkerwanderungen in Central Asia, the Yuech-chih's conquest of Bactria, the ephemeral Indo-Parthian kingdom, the rise of the Kushan, and emergence of the Alans. Though definitive solutions to all these and other problems remain elusive in the present state of the evidence, Olbrycht must be congratulated for his efforts and. above all, for his analysis of how these events affected Parthia economically and politically (…). A brief review can hardly do justice to Olbrycht’s treatment of these complex issues" (Orbis Terrarum 6/2000, 273).

"Parthian Military Strategy at War against Rome" (1998)
In: Vilinbachov, G. V. & Masson, V. M. (eds.), Voennaja arkheologiia. Oruzhie i voennoe delo v istoricheskoi i sotsialnoi perspektive, Materialy Mezhdunarodnoi Konferentsii 2-5 sentiabria 1998 g. (Military Archaeology. Weaponry and Warfare in the Historical and Social Perspective, 2-5 Sep 1998)
St. Petersburg: 1998, p. 138-141.

"Das Arsakidenreich zwischen der mediterranen Welt und Innerasien" (1998)
In: Dabrowa, Edward (ed.), Ancient Iran and the mediterranean world. Proceedings of an international conference in honour of Professor Józef Wolski held at the Jagiellonian university, Cracow, in September 1996 (Electrum. Studies in Ancient History. 2.)
1998, p. 123-159.

"The Seleucids and the culture of their epoch" [in Polish] (1999)
In: Wolski, Józef, Dzieje u upadek imperium Seleucydów
Krakow: Polish Academy of Arts and Sciences, 1999, p. 135-208.
Abstract: Presented are numerous Parthian art objects, including the "Prince of Shami" and artifacts from Nisa.

"The Significance of the Arsacid Kingdom in the History of Central Asia" (1999)
In: Masson, V. M. (ed.), Izuchenie kulturnogo naslediia Vostoka: Kulturnye traditsii i preemstvennost v razvitii drevnikh kultur i tsivilizatsii. Materialy Mezhdunarodnoi konferentsii v Sankt-Peterburge (23-25 nojabria 1999)
Ashgabad-St. Petersburg: 1999, p. 35-38.

"Bemerkungen zur parthischen Münzprägung unter Vologases I. und Pakoros II" (1999)
In: Notae Numismaticae - Zapiski Numizmatyczne
Krakow: 1999, no. 3/4, p. 69-93.
Abstract: Die vorliegende Untersuchung setzt es sich zum Ziel, in einer Aufarbeitung des zur Verfügung stehenden Quellenmaterials die unterschiedlichen Interpretationsansätze, mit denen die parthischen Prägungen der 70er Jahre des 1. Jhs. n. Chr. analysiert werden, einer kritischen Überprüfung zu unterziehen. Behandelt wird die parthische Prägetätigkeit im Zeitalter des Vologases I. (50-80 n. Chr.) und Pakoros II. (78-ca. 110 n. Chr.). [Author]

"Remarks on the Presence of Iranian Peoples in Europe and Their Asiatic Relations" (2000)
In: Pstrusińska, J. & Fear, A. T. (eds.), Collectanea Celto-Asiatica Cracoviensia,
Kraków: 2000, p. 101-140.

"Der Fernhandel in Ostsarmatien und in den benachbarten Gebieten (zweite Hälfte des 2. - 1. Jh. v. Chr.)" (2001)
In: Laverna 12, 2001,
Laverna, 2001, vol. 12, p. 86-122.
Abstract: Numismatic and literary evidence is used to show the trade relations between the Arsacid empire, Transcaucasian countries and the peoples of the eastern and central Europe. [Author]

"Die Aorser, die Oberen Aorser und die Siraker bei Strabon. Zur Geschichte und Eigenart der Völker im nordpontischen und nordkaukasischen Raum im 2.-1. Jh. v. Chr." (2001)
Klio, 2001, no. 83, p. 425-450.
Abstract: The paper discusses the history of the nomadic peoples living in the steppes north of the Caucasus and in the North Pontic area. Treated are also relations between the steppe tribes and Parthia. [Author]

"The Origins of the Arsacid Parthian Cavalry: Some Remarks" (2001)
In: Masson, V. M. (ed.), The Role of Ahalteke Horse in the Formation of World Horse-Breeding: Materials for the International Conference, Ashgabad 2001
Ashgabad: 2001, p. 108-111.

"Parthia and Nomads of Central Asia. Elements of Steppe Origin in the Social and Military Developments of Arsacid Iran" (2003)
In: Schneider, Irene (ed.), Series: Mitteilungen des SFB "Differenz und Integration" 5: Militär und Staatlichkeit (Orientwissenschaftliche Hefte 12/2003)
Halle/Saale: 2003, p. 69-109.
Abstract: The most obvious approach to ascertain the importance of the nomadic traditions in Parthian Iran lies in the study of the social structure and military developments in the Arsacid empire, with particular reference to its origins. To understand Arsacid history properly it must be kept in mind that the Parthian kingdom emerged as the result of a nomadic invasion in northeastern Iran. Although tightly bound to their steppe heritage, the Arsacids showed a remarkable ability to adopt promptly and efficiently a number of the hallmarks associated with the sedentary peoples, whom they had subjugated, including the establishment of new cities, the creation of strongholds, and the introduction of a coinage system. On the whole, the first Arsacids – Arsaces I and Arsaces II – managed to create a new stable state.

The character of socio-economic and cultural relations within the Arsacid kingdom is an extremely complex one. The Arsacid Parthians maintained different relations with the nomads of Middle Asia and the Caspian-Pontic steppes, including ties in terms of political marriagies and alliances, moreover, even some Parthian kings highligted their nomadic background (e.g. Sinatruces and Artabanus II). All those links strengthened the nomadic legacy in Parthia.

After the conquest of Parthyaia and Hyrcania, Arsaces I found himself in the predicament of ruling two worlds: the nomadic Aparni and the settled population of northeastern Iran. Apparently, the principal under which the social structure of the Arsacid heartland and of Arsacid Parthia operated was the nomadic legacy of the Aparni. The rigid division of Parthian society into "freemen" and the lower ranks of the dependants as well as the dichotomies between an "equestrian estate" and the rest of society (peasants and townsmen) originated in the period when the Arsacid kingdom was established and when the invading nomads subjugated the indigenous population of northeastern Iran. Essentially, the aristocracy of the victorious Aparni became the ruling elite in Parthia, but it assimilated -- mainly in the lower ranks -- also parts of the traditional sedentary Iranian nobility of Parthyaia (and the adjacent lands including Hyrcania). Parthian social structure was closely connected with the state’s military organization, which for the most part was founded on nomadic practices inherited from the Aparni.

The ethos of the Arsacid Parthians -- understood as the fundamental character underlying the Parthian guiding assumptions, customs, manners, mentality and Arsacid social as well as military institutions -- was quite different from that of the Iranians in the Achaemenid period. This ethos was esentially of nomadic descendance. Particulary striking in the picture of Parthian society is a close connection between higher status and horse-riding. Horse-riding was treated by the Parthians as a hallmark of upper social ranks, being essentially reserved only for the free-born men. Needless to say the military position of Parthian cavalry reflected this as well. All this is again nomadic heritage, and not Iranian sedentary tradition. Also the Parthian dress was of steppe origin. As rightly recognized by H. von Gall, the Parthian dress is to be treated as "ein Prärogativ, eine Art Amtstracht", especially in the conquered territories of western Iran and Mesopotamia. As far as can be judged at the present state of research, the iconographic materials provided by the statues from Ustyurt and Mangyshlak areas (western Kazakhstan) supply new evidence pointing towards close cultural relations between the Arsacid Parthians and the nomads of Middle Asia and set the research of many aspects of the nomadic-Parthian affinities upon a new course.

Generally speaking, the main fighting arms of the Parthians, the cataphracts and the horse-archers, were principally of steppe origin. The early Arsacid cavalry forces with their special equipment and highly sophisticated tactics were created in the milieu embracing the nomadic Dahae and Massagetae in Middle Asia. A certain role in this process was played also by the sedentary Parthyaians/Parthians in northeastern Iran. In developing their warfare, the nomads of the pre-Arsacid period, and then the Arsacid Parthians had to take into account Hellenistic innovations brought into Iran and Middle Asia by Alexander the Great and his successors.

The culture of the Parthians, their political, economic and military institutions underwent different influences, including Hellenistic and Old Iranian traditions. At the same time, the essential components of Parthian society, way of life and warfare remained rather conservative and were based on steppe nomadic factors, and as such they exhibit no principal ties with the Achaemenid period or with other traditions of the sedentary world in Western Asia. [Author]

"Griechen und Perser in achaimenidischer Zeit. Überlegungen zum Verhältnis zwischen Orient und Okzident" (2003)
In: Pstrusińska, J. & Stalmaszczyk, P. (eds.), Collectanea Eurasiatica Cracoviensia. Understanding Eurasia (in German)
Kraków: 2003, p. 145-164.

"The Ochos river in the classical sources: a study in the historical geography of northeastern Iran and Middle Asia" (2003)
In: Mkrtyčev, T. K. (ed.), Tsentralnaia Aziia. Istochniki, istoriia, kultura
Moskow: 2003, p. 114-117.

"The Seleukids and the Arsakids: propaganda aspects in the rivalry for supremacy in the 'Hellenistic Near East'" [in Polish, German summary] (2004)
In: Morawiecki, L. & Berdowski, P. (eds.), Ideology and Propaganda in Antiquity. Materials of a Conference organized by the Ancient History Committee of the Polish Historical Association, Rzeszów, September 12-14, 2000
Rzeszow: Biblioteka Frazy, 2004, p. 45-68.

Aleksander Wielki i świat irański [Alexander the Great and the Iranian world, in Polish] (2004)
Rzeszow: University of Rzeszow Publishing House, 2004, 412 p.
Abstract: This work is a contribution to the much-needed clarification of the history of Hellenistic Iran. Contrary to the majority of studies of the topic, the author focuses on the role of the Iranians and of the Iranian traditions in the period of Alexander’s rule in Western and Middle Asia. The book presents a broad array of source materials and examines the political issues, fundamental changes in Alexander’s warfare and army in the Iranian area (some developments in warfare heralded Parthian military practices), Alexander’s colonization, coinage (including the famous decadrachms), and the iconography of several art objects (including the Alexander sarcophagus and the Alexander mosaic). The study is of crucial importance for a better understanding of the pre-Arsacid period in Iran. [Author]

See review by Katarzyna Balbuza in sehepunkte 5 (2005), Nr. 7/8 [15.07.2005]

"Foundations of Alexander the Great in Iran and Middle Asia: origins and status of the colonists" [in Polish, German summary] (2004)
In: Mrozewicz, L. & Balbuza, K. (eds.), The Ancient City. Materials of an all-Polish Scholarly Conference, Poznan, September 19-21, 2002 (= Xenia Posnaniensia 3)Poznan: VIS, 2004, p. 121-138.

Robert Drews - Early Riders
http://books.google.com/books?id=XTgyU8 ... rews&psp=1
his works
http://sitemason.vanderbilt.edu/classics/drews
bachmat66 (Dariusz T. Wielec)
<a class="postlink" href="http://dariocaballeros.blogspot.com/">http://dariocaballeros.blogspot.com/
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#64
Many thanks and laus, Dariusz!
Very interesting references, mostly parthian, but I'm interested too.
The Alexander book looks great, sadly I can't read it. I'll try to find some of the german or english stuff.

regards
"paraita karam hamiçiyam haya mana naiy gaubataiy avam jata"
"Go forth and crush that rebellious army, wich does not call itself mine!" King Darius at Behistun

Vishtaspa/Inyigo
Reply
#65
Quote:I have read the Shahnameh, the main work on Iranic that has survived, therefore I fell completely free to disagree with scholars that claim that Xenophon wanted to show the ideal ruler and that everything is explainable without the Persians.
Quote:Paullus Scipio:

( e.g. the education of Persian boys is an ideal, and sounds suspiciously like the Spartan agogue rather than something genuinely Persian )

I disagree. As first I think the Persian and Greek cultures were not that different, the Persians thought, e.g. Apollo were their Mazda, the Spartans as the masters of Greece their equals and many other examples, we also know that the Greeks knew about the Iranics before their historical contact with them.

In Herodotus we find the same strict doctrines for the youths, clear rules which are only given in much greater detail by Xenophon.
Actually we can expect that Herodotus himself knew about the Persian work or oral tradition about Cyrus of the Cyropaedia, due to the very last part of the Histories; Herodotus tells that Cyrus demanded the Persians not to change their harsh and difficult life in the Persis to remain rugged. Like in the Cyropaedia, Cyrus appears as ideal "father" of the Persians with his rules for further generations.
I don't say that the Cyropaedia is the biography of Cyrus; it’s most likely a propaganda work for the Persians soldiers about their glorious ancestors.

Quote:Paullus Scipio:

using a 'fictionalised' Cyrus whose Persian army and Egyptian foe never really existed.

That could be very well a report from Cyrus times, when Persians didn't have much information about the Egyptians or better said anyone except their direct neighbours. Otherwise Xenophon make pretty hard claims when saying that those defeated Egyptians were settled around the east Mediterranean coast and "every one who went there can still see the descendants of that defeated Egyptian army", I don't think he would have ever made such a claim if it was just a tale.


Quote:Paullus Scipio:

The imaginary battle of 'Thymbara', though, served to illustrate Xenophon's thoughts to a large degree on drills and tactics of contemporary Hoplites.

If we look at the seal of the fully equipped Persian heavy infantryman we can assume that there really was a heavy hand to hand fighting infantry force, there is no reason to think that it's Greek just because it’s similar. Those games the Persians played are one reason why the Persians became so strong during actual battle.

I agree that there were heavy Persian infantry (the sparabara, the Applebearers, and possibly the Kardakes). But the Persian infantry of the Cyropaedia with axes and swords and peltai are purely fictional in my opinion. Persian infantry used spears or bows as their main weapons. The Persian troops of the Cyropaedia look like the Amazons or generic Asian barbarians of Greek art, as J.K. Anderson says.

J.K. Anderson has pointed out that the Battle of Thymbrara looks like a lesson for Greek generals in how to beat an enemy that tries to outflank you with hoplites and how to beat a deeper phalanx, with some fantastic addition such as the ox-drawn towers. Xenophon could well have been inspired by Persian tales to use the life of Cyrus as the basis for his novel, but he added and changed many things and misunderstood others. He may have respected many Persians, but he was also convinced that Greeks were superior so would have had no problem with heavily adapting a Persian story.

The spearman in that seal lacks a shield, so some of his gear must have been left out. In my opinion he is a sparabara or dismounted cavalryman.

I'll read the Shahname one of these days, but my list of books to read is growing faster than I take books off it. Its a very busy term at university.
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
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#66
In the end, this discussion comes down to the Helleno-centric view of Persia and its history. Herodotus would have us think that a minor collection of tribal herdsman knocked over the Assyrians (along with the Arabs, Medes and Babylonians); knocked over the Medes then the Babylonians and the Lydians. That a motley crew of tribal herdsman ever did so is to me, frankly, incredulous.

That the Persians suplied contingents to the Medes against the Assyrians is likely. That, according to the Cyropaedia, the Persians topled the Medes without a battle is fiction. The Babylonian tablets (chronicles) thunder against any such notion.

At this juncture, it should be apparent that faith in Xenphon's Cyrus Romance - the Cyropaedia - is seriously misplaced. This work is much like the various Alexander romances. If anything, it is more fictitious as it is, essentially, a morality tale.

The Anabasis, a marvellous "boys' own adventure", is also want to mislead: from its pan-Hellenic panagyrics to Xenophon's incontinent and unblushing recounting of 900,000 Persians at Cunnaxa (and the 300,000 who arrived late!). Yes, 1,200,000 - a believable figure that.

The Shahname, or Book of Kings, is poetry and a none too reliable guide to Persian history. Many a legend and myth populate its couplets. Using same as histrory is akin to reconstructing the history of Summeria via the Epic of Gilgamesh.

Pierre Briant, in his Cyrus to Alexander, has three single sentence references in a monograph of over 1,100 pages. From the premier scholar and rehabilitator (in my own view) of Achaemenid history this is eloquent testimony to its historicity.
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
Reply
#67
In the end, this discussion comes down to the Helleno-centric view of Persia and its history. Herodotus would have us think that a minor collection of tribal herdsman knocked over the Assyrians (along with the Arabs, Medes and Babylonians); knocked over the Medes then the Babylonians and the Lydians. That a motley crew of tribal herdsman ever did so is to me, frankly, incredulous.

That the Persians suplied contingents to the Medes against the Assyrians is likely. That, according to the Cyropaedia, the Persians topled the Medes without a battle is fiction. The Babylonian tablets (chronicles) thunder against any such notion.

At this juncture, it should be apparent that faith in Xenphon's Cyrus Romance - the Cyropaedia - is seriously misplaced. This work is much like the various Alexander romances. If anything, it is more fictitious as it is, essentially, a morality tale.

The Anabasis, a marvellous "boys' own adventure", is also want to mislead: from its pan-Hellenic panegyrics to Xenophon's incontinent and unblushing recounting of 900,000 Persians at Cunnaxa (and the 300,000 who arrived late!). Yes, 1,200,000 - a believable figure that.

The Shahname, or Book of Kings, is poetry and a none too reliable guide to Persian history. Many a legend and myth populate its couplets. Using same as history is akin to reconstructing the history of Summeria via the Epic of Gilgamesh.

Pierre Briant, in his Cyrus to Alexander, has three single sentence references in a monograph of over 1,100 pages. From the premier scholar and rehabilitator (in my own view) of Achaemenid history this is eloquent testimony to its historicity.
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
Reply
#68
Quote:The Shahname, or Book of Kings, is poetry and a none too reliable guide to Persian history. Many a legend and myth populate its couplets. Using same as histrory is akin to reconstructing the history of Summeria via the Epic of Gilgamesh.

Pierre Briant, in his Cyrus to Alexander, has three single sentence references in a monograph of over 1,100 pages. From the premier scholar and rehabilitator (in my own view) of Achaemenid history this is eloquent testimony to its historicity.

Agree, but I think nobody wants to use Shahnameh as reliable history, but as an interesting source of mixed and very ancient material. Just like Cyropaedia, is fiction and we must use it with grear caution, but not disdain it. Shahnameh contains legends that come back from Avesta itself, mixed with achaemenid, greek (Sekandar), parthian, sassanian...) Homer is not history, but contains traces of history.

I agree with the valoration of P.Briant. In his Cyrus to... he referres few times to further iranian legends (he uses mostly contemporaneus records, and uses with great caution (more than before) greek sources) but in his book about Darius III he takes many inranian legends and epics in his picture (as nobody before).
He is in fact a rehabilitator, and he improves his masterpiece with pdf add-ons containing new bibliography, new sources, ect (achemenet.com).

Regards
"paraita karam hamiçiyam haya mana naiy gaubataiy avam jata"
"Go forth and crush that rebellious army, wich does not call itself mine!" King Darius at Behistun

Vishtaspa/Inyigo
Reply
#69
Quote:[He is in fact a rehabilitator, and he improves his masterpiece with pdf add-ons containing new bibliography, new sources, ect (achemenet.com).

From Cyrus to Alexander is the most outstanding work on Achaemenid history I have read....and continue to re-read. The breadth and scope, coupled with the author's mastery of and empathy for the subject, make it a delight. Pierre Briant brings, literally, a life-time of work in the field to this exhaustive monograph. The index pages of source material, subject matter, names, etc would run to the average paperback.

It stagers me that one man can be across so much source material.

I know it is not an "inexpensive" purchase (such a work should earn its author a Franc) but, that pointed out, anyone who has an interest in understanding Persian history from a viewpoint beyond the Hellenic construct should read it.

Here endeth the lecture!!
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
Reply
#70
Hello gents,
I wold like to point that Briant's 'From Cyrus to Alexander' can be gotten from the publisher for $ 44 plus $5 shipping (in US) - this is the best price I could find Smile //www.eisenbrauns.com/ECOM/_28O0LO1A7.HTM">https://www.eisenbrauns.com/ECOM/_28O0LO1A7.HTM

I will try to extract some of the points from Olbrycht's book regarding use of sources - from Xenophon to Kurtius.
Drews is very 'ascorbic' about both Herodotus and Xenophon which may reflect the present scholarship on the veracity and legend in the writings of both Hellenes. The most interesting point of Drews books, in his chapters on the Media and Persia, is that he negates Herodotus knowledge about the very essence of the Persians - that is the equestrianism and the role of the whole thing in their ritual, ethics, costume and warfare. In very short chapters he spells it all, which is pretty astonishing. His argument does ring convincing to me, to say at least. I am working right now with another Polish archaeologist/military historian who has written a book on the field armies of the Achaemenids, and when I read it - so fat it has been just annotated sketches I may have something new for this topic...
I just want to say that this discussion has been very enlightening this far Smile
bachmat66 (Dariusz T. Wielec)
<a class="postlink" href="http://dariocaballeros.blogspot.com/">http://dariocaballeros.blogspot.com/
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#71
Interesting material there, different theories are always helpful but unfortunately a polish scholar will have a hard time establishing theories which speak against a Frye or Wiesehöfer (who have of course done good work on many areas).

Thanks for all those book tips!

@Vishtaspa

Quote:I completely agree. I think that, fortunately, scholars like Pierre Briant, Heleen Sancisi-Weerdenburg (with the Achaemenid History journal), Josef Wieserhoefer etc are working in the rigth direction, and leaving behind the old fashioned and too helenocentric persian history.

Achaemennet sure looks good, unfortunately I can't understand French. It might have been early work of Wieserhöfer but the work of him I read was very mainstream, nothing interesting.

Btw. If you really plan to read the Shahnameh in Persian some day and want to train your Persian skills on Ferdowsi level, there is a serial about Ferdowsi's live which was recently produced and released in Iranian TV. Although is has some Islamic episodes built-in, it mainly shows the tales of the battle between Esfandiar and Rostam and the tale of Rostam and Sohrab (which is also found in Germanic legends). Some of the actors look good and although the equipment is not really historical it gives a good impression on the Shahnameh. If you’re interested you can download it from this site: http://www.persianhub.org/53-download-chehel-sarbaz/

Since Ferdowsi is one of my heroes I like the TV show, even if the propagated Persia-ShiaMoslem link is not according to my taste.

@Sean Manning

Quote:But the Persian infantry of the Cyropaedia with axes and swords and peltai are purely fictional in my opinion. Persian infantry used spears or bows as their main weapons. The Persian troops of the Cyropaedia look like the Amazons or generic Asian barbarians of Greek art, as J.K. Anderson says.

The Amazons had a Sarmatian link, the Sarmatians a Scythian link and the Iranics a Scythian link. That most likely the reason why their style is similar including the battleaxe.

The seals (in which they always have the battleaxe in the case the spear is lost) and other archaeological finds show that Xenophon knew what he was talking about.

As for the shields, in Persepolis we always see the heavy “violinâ€
Bahram Ardavan-Dorood
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#72
Quote:Achaemennet sure looks good, unfortunately I can't understand French. It might have been early work of Wieserhöfer but the work of him I read was very mainstream, nothing interesting.


Don't worry at all, the achemenet web can be put in english, and contains many material ( some articles) in english. The other web, http://www.museum-achemenet.college-de-france.fr/ has great image stuff.
While Briant's work is the best modern reference book (dethroning that of Olmstead, not bad book for his age) Wieserhöfer, imo, has one of the best introductory books (Ancient Persia), wiht good bibliographical references for further study. As you said, nothing new, but I strongly recomend that for a well made introduction. And covers parthian and sassanian times too.

Quote:Btw. If you really plan to read the Shahnameh in Persian some day and want to train your Persian skills on Ferdowsi level, there is a serial about Ferdowsi's live which was recently produced and released in Iranian TV. Although is has some Islamic episodes built-in, it mainly shows the tales of the battle between Esfandiar and Rostam and the tale of Rostam and Sohrab (which is also found in Germanic legends). Some of the actors look good and although the equipment is not really historical it gives a good impression on the Shahnameh. If you’re interested you can download it from this site: http://www.persianhub.org/53-download-chehel-sarbaz/

Since Ferdowsi is one of my heroes I like the TV show, even if the propagated Persia-ShiaMoslem link is not according to my taste.

Thank you for that, I'm downloading. It sounds very interesting, but with my current level I can`t understand well a tv serie. I have also a Shahnameh persian resume made for kids. Nevertheless, hearing and viewing a tv serie is a great training. And I understand your tastes regarding that.

regards
"paraita karam hamiçiyam haya mana naiy gaubataiy avam jata"
"Go forth and crush that rebellious army, wich does not call itself mine!" King Darius at Behistun

Vishtaspa/Inyigo
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#73
Quote:
Quote:with some fantastic addition such as the ox-drawn towers

So why should this a "fantastic", Cyrus had already a large empire and logistic/organization structure when these towers appeared.

And all done with a few nomadic herders. A triumph of logistics indeed.

Right, all facetiousness aside, let’s get to other matters. You’ll need to excuse me if this runs on: a parish function and a bottle of red over the organising of Osso Bucco in the slow cooker (the red must be drinkable else one cannot eat it).

The Babylonian Chronicles attest to major conflict involving the Medes, the Persians and, eventually of course, themselves. That the Medes ever thought it nice that Cyrus rule over them as he was the bastard son of a Persian/Mede marriage is really not the point, nor is it likely. Indeed, it would depend entirely on whose testimony you would take as to which “Moses in a reed floatâ€
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
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#74
Hear! Hear! Smile D ( ......so a Laudes for you !

...and a man after my own heart ! ( if a red isn't worth drinking, it isn't worth cooking with ! ....mmmmmmmm......Osso Bucco... Smile D

Cheers !!
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#75
Why thank you good sir.

The red, unfortunately, is dead. As Obe-Wan Kenobe once said, though, "there is another..."

Credulous belief in sources with an agenda irritates though.
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
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