newly discovered Hellenistic (?) mail

[sitalkes]

Hi, Stanimir (see topic in "Allies & Enmeies of Rome - Unique Celtic Helmet found in Bulgaria) sent me some pictures of a chain armour (from Bulgaria?), from the Hellenistic period according to him, which had a strange clasp/buckle. He saw some discussion on a similar topic in romanarmy and wanted to participate with this info. He thinks the artefacts are from the second half of the III c. BC to the first half of the II c.

Also, he created a new topic about chain armour in http://forum.boinaslava.net/showthread. ... post205151 . The third picture in his fisrt post there is the remains, according to him, of what Kitov claims to be a chain armour from the Sveticata mounds. Stanimir does not agree on this.

Anybody who can identify these (don't know much about this but it looks Roman to me), please let me know!

[MeinPanzer]

Could you ask Stanimir for any information on other artefacts that were found with this mail? On what basis does he date this item? What are those other plates (labelled 14 in the first image)?

The yoke clasp, though I've never seen one like that before, looks Celtic.

As I stated in the other thread, I suspect that these are from another find of the Padea–Panaghiurski Kolonii group. In the latter second century BC, this type of elite Dacian burial spread below the Danube, and so this find would fit in perfectly. However, if it does come from a burial of this group, it cannot date to before the second century BC.

In that other thread that you link to, I recognize the first image as being of the famous Ciumesti finds, but where is the second from, and what other kinds of artefacts was it found with? How are those two plates with attachment fixtures oriented on the body? I see that he states that it dates to the 2nd or 1st C. BC. The third image looks to me like small rusted fragments of iron scale armour. Again, any further information on those other than they are from Sveticata and date to the last three centuries BC? Could he provide a citation for Kitov discussing it?

[Urselius]

The wheel symbol is thought to be a reference to the sun. If memory serves, there are a couple of bronze Celtic helmets from Italy with wheel-shaped crests (and rather thin sheet bronze horns).

[sitalkes]

Hi, Eric Kinzel got Stanimir's message that was with the photos translated (by Rossitza Olson). This is what Stanimir said:

I have seen that you had uploaded to “Roman Armyâ€

[caiusbeerquitius]

What are the objects over # 14 in your first pic? is it leather? rawhide? metal? Was it found together with the chainmail? inside maybe?
Might be very interesting to know.

[sitalkes]

I have asked for more information. Although I can't tell you anythign more about item 14 yet, I have a much larger picture of item 14 which I can email to you if you like.

[caiusbeerquitius]

That would be great! thanks!

[Pekka]

Do you have more close-up pics of the mail ?

[caiusbeerquitius]

Thanks for the pic!
if the fragments indded were leather, and found together with the mail, it meight be possible to reconstruct a subarmalis - I´ll have a closer look...
Christian

[Dan Howard]

Could the leather fragments simply be edging for the mail rather than a separate garment?

[MeinPanzer]

Could the leather fragments simply be edging for the mail rather than a separate garment?

I highly doubt those fragments are leather. It seems most likely that they are fragments of iron.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Yes, quite possible. But still hard to say from the pics... :roll:

[Tarbicus]

The wheel symbol is thought to be a reference to the sun. If memory serves, there are a couple of bronze Celtic helmets from Italy with wheel-shaped crests (and rather thin sheet bronze horns).

It still saw use in a Roman context much later than the 2nd-C BC:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 449#122449

[Komanos]

are 13 and 14 from the same burial? Do you know? I'm wondering whether we're making any sort of error to think that the chain and the (I think iron) other material belong in the same suit of armor?

That said, could the flat armor, if iron, be related to the banded armor seen on a figurine of a getic warrior (don't have a pic handy, but its in bienkowski)? its hard to judge size, though the connector between the shoulder pads helps. the bands appear to be, at most, six inches wide (quite possibly a good bit less, again, hard to say), and maybe closer to three or four. Six inches seems far too large for banded armor, but perhaps not.

[MeinPanzer]

That said, could the flat armor, if iron, be related to the banded armor seen on a figurine of a getic warrior (don't have a pic handy, but its in bienkowski)? its hard to judge size, though the connector between the shoulder pads helps. the bands appear to be, at most, six inches wide (quite possibly a good bit less, again, hard to say), and maybe closer to three or four. Six inches seems far too large for banded armor, but perhaps not.

What image would that be from Bienkowski? Do you know what number it was it was? Are you sure the figurine was Getic?