Romans in the Americas

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

Well, in all honesty, I don't see a problem with the Romans having been to the Americas. Maybe they did.

It's just highly improbable that some poor shipwrecked Roman sailors ended up there. I don't think this would work, as the currents won't drift a wrecked ship to North-America (site on currents: http://www.oceanweather.com/data/ ) To get there the ships crew would have had to cross against currents and winds, this implying they knew what they did before. Further the Romans (other than the Vikings who, besides, used the northern Route!) weren't technically able and had no adequate ships for the open sea.
The problem with Romans in America so far is that any other explanation of these finds (IF there are any, that stand to scientific examination) is way more plausible than Romans landing in America.
Sorry, I'd like the idea, too.

[Senovara]

And a great idea for an alternate historical novel too....

That sounds interesting. Oh, please write!

[Marcus Cassius LegioXIV]

Like I said earlier, I'd say it was Spanish bringing them in, plus maybe Vikings for the older or very northern finds of Roman coins. Just look at all these hoards of Roman coins found nowadays, I'm sure people in the past were finding them too AND using them once they found them. It would have been like winning the lottery!

[Sean Manning]

Like I said earlier, I'd say it was Spanish bringing them in, plus maybe Vikings for the older or very northern finds of Roman coins. Just look at all these hoards of Roman coins found nowadays, I'm sure people in the past were finding them too AND using them once they found them. It would have been like winning the lottery!

There are Roman coins in the foundation deposits of some early buildings in the New World. So early settlers were definitely bringing some along!

Given the limits of Roman sailing ships (they were fairly big, but had a simple rig and fragile steering oars) and the lack of evidence of Roman traders sailing in the right direction, it doesn't seem likely that any would have crossed the Atlantic. Exploring the Indian Ocean and British Isles was adventurous enough!

The odd coin can be explained a variety of ways: we know some were brought by early settlers and colonists, and others might have washed across the Atlantic after shipwrecks or in the bellies of fish.

I think I've read a few alternate history stories about Romans in the New World, but can't remember the names or authors.

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

The odd coin can be explained a variety of ways: we know some were brought by early settlers and colonists, and others might have washed across the Atlantic after shipwrecks or in the bellies of fish.

Or a lot of these of these finds are deliberate fabrications. There is a lot of "cult archeology" that is not, and never was Archeology. These finds won't stand up to any objective scrutiny. People usually make money off this, or gain their "fifteen minutes". This is not a case of academics 'not having an open mind', but the inability of the proponent of the find in question being able to produce creditable (testable) evidence. The "it is so because I say so" has no academic merit.

What is the most probable: Here is a coin in my hand, as I type, from the reign of Trajan that can be obtained anywhere. It (1), must have come from a lost settlement of Romans who got here (near Roswell) because obviously because they had been transplanted by flying saucers since they didn't have the technology to be here otherwise, and therefore this had to from a from a time traveler, and this lost Roman (now) city has had it's entire record erased because the whole legion was lost and modern Archeology wants to cover "The Truth" up for reasons that are never explained. Or, (2), I made the whole thing up to get some publicity or money.

The fact is, anyone can claim to be an Archaeologist. You cannot make claims to being a an Engineer, or Doctor or any other profession without professional credentials, so why should Archeology be any different? There are some gifted and very knowledgeable amateurs to be sure. Yet they cannot hold professional positions because of the credential issue.

It would be cool if there was creditable evidence of some Trans-Atlantic contact. It would revitalize a growing stagnation of Archaeological thought and theory.

One of these days we must have a thread on science, hypothesis testing and the scientific method. This would have to include the various schools of development and thought in Archeology and History. This would, of course, probably degenerate into a brawl.

R. Izard

[Ironhand]

You unlock this door with the key of imagination,
beyond it is another dimension,
a dimension of sound, a dimension of sight, a dimension of mind,
your moving into a land of both shadow and substance, of things and idea's, you just crossed over into the twilight zone. :wink:

[MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS]

Well, in all honesty, I don't see a problem with the Romans having been to the Americas. Maybe they did.

It's just highly improbable that some poor shipwrecked Roman sailors ended up there. I don't think this would work, as the currents won't drift a wrecked ship to North-America (site on currents: http://www.oceanweather.com/data/ ) To get there the ships crew would have had to cross against currents and winds, this implying they knew what they did before. Further the Romans (other than the Vikings who, besides, used the northern Route!) weren't technically able and had no adequate ships for the open sea.
The problem with Romans in America so far is that any other explanation of these finds (IF there are any, that stand to scientific examination) is way more plausible than Romans landing in America.
Sorry, I'd like the idea, too.

Well, I don't know, weather is such an unpredictable thing. All you need is maybe some fog, a lot of luck and maybe a freak wave. Many variables come into the equation which is one reason I would not fully abandon the hypothesis, although that is all it will probably ever remain, a hypothesis. However unlikely it could have been for the odd bireme or trading vessel to end up in the Americas, I would certainly never exclude the possibility.

[DanM]

My Theory:

THe Romans made it to the americas and said "hmm, theres nothing here." they left.THey should try living here for 14 years, why couldn't my ancestors have not been captured by the Barabrians, and stayed in italy, then I might live in rome. 8)

[Decimus Claudius Drusus]

I have a hard time believing the Romans made it here, as much as I do like the idea of it.

Its physically possible but unlikely, I wouldnt think that an unlikely vessel was blown of course, if they did reach here it would have been a documented expedition, and you would think that we would have some sources or writings whether they returned or not, in my opinion.

However, wasn't a few years ago they thought they found remnants of an Egyptian vessel in South America? Wish i had a source. There was a debate as to whether people actually made it or this boat, cuz it was rather small, was abandoned, or the crew died, and it was carried to the shores in South America. Maybe i can find an article

[Aetius Helvius Merula]

Oh, come on guys. If aliens appeared in the bible, then they could have easily grabbed a legion, made them perfect human Jannisaries, then used them to conquer the New World and pave the way for the mothership...sorry, just my wierd sense of humor.

Personally, I don't buy it, for the reasons already stated. If the Romans had made it over here, it seems the evidence would be more substantial.

[MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS]

Personally, I don't buy it, for the reasons already stated. If the Romans had made it over here, it seems the evidence would be more substantial.

That is what most people are misunderstanding. By saying ''the romans made it there'' everybody thinks of large conquest fleets ladden with legions, well documented by generals and so on.

The above obviously did not happen as you said, we have no evidence for it. But it does not exclude the possibility a roman vessel may have some way or another ended up there. (for this to have happened it must also have never returned). This I am willing to accept as ''the romans made it to the americas'', an isolated accident. The evidence to corroborate this would be MUCH harder to find, but it is a possibility.

[MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS]

An interesting read, and no doubt true.

What has always intrigued me is why no Greek, Roman or Egyptian ever sailed south of the Pillars of Hercules, as in down the coast of Africa. If they went upwards towards Iberia, Hispania, Gaul and Eventually Britannia and Hibernia (and it was QUITE a way up) how come they never bothered to go down? Or indeed out towards the americas.

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

What has always intrigued me is why no Greek, Roman or Egyptian ever sailed south of the Pillars of Hercules, as in down the coast of Africa. If they went upwards towards Iberia, Hispania, Gaul and Eventually Britannia and Hibernia (and it was QUITE a way up) how come they never bothered to go down?

There is a posibility that the Romans reached the Atlanic, to the Canary Islands (The Island of Dogs).

The Carthaginian Hanno the Navigator ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanno_the_Navigator ) underwent a journey along the African coast.

Carthage dispatched Hanno at the head of a fleet of sixty ships to explore and colonize the west coast of Africa. He sailed through the straits of Gibraltar, founded or repopulated seven colonies along the African coast of Morocco, and explored significantly further along the Atlantic coast of the continent.

for the ancient seafaring nations it was not a problem to sail beyond the Pillars of Hercules. this is all within their tech. capabilites, by following currents and winds. I think they'd loved to explore further, but that went beyond their capabilites.

[MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS]

What has always intrigued me is why no Greek, Roman or Egyptian ever sailed south of the Pillars of Hercules, as in down the coast of Africa. If they went upwards towards Iberia, Hispania, Gaul and Eventually Britannia and Hibernia (and it was QUITE a way up) how come they never bothered to go down?

There is a posibility that the Romans reached the Atlanic, to the Canary Islands (The Island of Dogs).

The Carthaginian Hanno the Navigator ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanno_the_Navigator ) underwent a journey along the African coast.

Carthage dispatched Hanno at the head of a fleet of sixty ships to explore and colonize the west coast of Africa. He sailed through the straits of Gibraltar, founded or repopulated seven colonies along the African coast of Morocco, and explored significantly further along the Atlantic coast of the continent.

for the ancient seafaring nations it was not a problem to sail beyond the Pillars of Hercules. this is all within their tech. capabilites, by following currents and winds. I think they'd loved to explore further, but that went beyond their capabilites.

Wow, you really do learn a something new everyday. I had no idea of the above, partly because all maps I see of that time period seem to exclude most of Africa. I have also never heard any roman accounts of anything bellow the Berbers and Moors.

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

I have also never heard any roman accounts of anything bellow the Berbers and Moors.

Probably because there is nothing there? Voyages are expensive and if there is no real market why go? Exploration for the sake of exploration is actually an indulgence that is done on a limited basis because of the tax base. The moon trips are an example. If anything of real value had been found we would be living there now.

There was a fairly well attested endeavor by Hatsheptsut (XVIII Dynasty) that consisted of five ship that went to Punt in what is probably now Somalia. The Egyptian account, which probably exaggerates a bit, lists great quantities of exotic goods including, myrrh, gold, and exotic trees. Since the initial contact was profitable, contact was maintained for some time, since the Egyptians and their products were well received.

It may be significant that Hanno didn't find anything worth going back for and that got around very quickly. Venture capitalism always seems to underlie a lot of altruistic exploration or research done for the sake of furthering knowledge, contrary to what the PR dept. would have you believe. Plus the common sense approach that it is not a good career move to sail off the edge of the world.

R. Izard