Marathon 2011

[Ceasar Augustus]

But the list is a great start Paul :wink: .

[Ceasar Augustus]

What article is that?

[Kineas]

Pardon my ignorance, but can you illustrate an early Boeotian? The Toronto crowd is discussing going as Plateaens. lots of naked nymphs on shields...

[Kineas]

Friends, do you consider the latest Deepeeka dory with the bronze butt spike to be suitable/acceptable/good/terrible/???

[Marcus Germanicus Ferox]

Kalimera Kineas

Hmmnnnnn..................... Not good really - it comes in two pieces and the Aichme is a bit large - that having been said the Sarouters are not bad. Armae are selling them I think and you will get a discount for being a member of RAT.

Check out the H.A. site www.hoplites.org and it's sister site 4hoplites.com - there is some excellent info re:kit on the latter - all Andy's (Ouragos) work and is all stuff we use in the H.A. Is as authentic as we can get it at the moment. There are also useful links on there to credible suppliers. You should be able to make yourself a Dory for less than the price of the deepeeka one and something a lot more accurate.

Happy hunting :wink:

Mark

[ouragos]

Wow - how excited people get when kit detail is discussed!

However...

Aspis: I think you will find the scale is 80cms - 1meter (give or take a centemeter)

Lamdas: There are strong arguments to support its use long before the Peloponesian. Take on Spartan World on this one! I still hate them though... :wink: .. and I have not said I accept the argument :wink: :wink:

Spears: Off the top of my head the range is 7'6" - 9'3" (tip to tip)

Swords: There are a number of patterns of leaf, semi-leaf and recurve and a variety of sizes. With flat backed kopis as well as curved back ones. But, for example, there is a nice illustration of a painted helmet on an impression on an earlier thread. He is carrying a kopis made in the Philippines (although he probably didn't buy it there). A lovely piece, but wrong - it has a back edge and the grip/guard is incorrect. You can't see the detail in the picture but I know the piece well. Should one like this be carried?

Linothorax: Leather? I think there is a debate somewhere on this. Yes you can make a pretty one, but correct?

Cuirass: arguably bell, transitional or muscle - but would you encourage someone to buy a deepeeka 8-pack?... and how many 'sexy' leather ones are out there???

Oh - and the question on the deepeeka dory furniture. Well visually, OK. The sarouter is pretty reasonable and not out of scale with finds. However it is light, and the head is far too heavy in comparison. A good dory should balance about two feet from the tip of the sarouter., At best this furniture will balance in the middle of the shaft. If you are prepared to grind back the head a little though it should be OK. The shaft would be better tapered as well, that would help balance but that is detail... possibly better to buy the furniture and affix to your own staff.

NOW - an effective line might be to set broad parameters within which people could work rather than to get too detailed? Authenticity is a touchy area and, in reality, little will ever be 100% authentic anyway. For example, the deepeeka linothorax are both a bit poor BUT they are in the reasonable 'spirit' of things (and if you have one, they can be improved so all is not lost). The deepeeka brass muscle is just wrong, BUT it too is in the 'spirit' of things. Wearing roman caligai is not.

Some of the Indian corinthians are appauling, I think there has been a wave of simplification to cut prices, but they are cheap and for some, that is important. But a pattern guide is necessary for the uninitiated.

I have commissioned new helmet patterns from India to try and get around the quality and authenticity issues and copies of 4 helmets from Munich (Glyptotech) should be available to traders from the Indian supplier at some point this year - which includes an Illurian stangely enough. As will aspides (actually, I think they are in a position to supply these now).

Materials - linen, wool, leather

OR...how do you feel about fibreglass armour/shields? Is it the visual look that is important and is authenticity being defined by what it looks like rather than what it is made from? In which case 'bring 'em on'. There are a lot of fibre shields out there and some really lovely fibre corinthians. This then opens up the 'why not cotton' argument - as in, it looks OK just like fibreglass does??

So where and how is the line drawn?

..Before this descends into a black hole, might I suggest that guidelines are constructed around the visual impression first as a minimum and then for those who want to go all the way, "how to get closer to the past and make things more authentic"?

In that way you can ensure the overall look of things but widen the potential attendance parameters. It will also take account of the approaches taken by various groups around the world who might want to attend. For example, there are now two groups in the UK and we have differing approached to authenticity. To the extent that, until very recently, members from one group would simply not be allowed onto the other's display. For some, a crest made from a red, nylon yardbrush might seem a good solution, for others it is herasy. For a crowd watching a display over the plain of Marathon - it is just a red crest.

[Arthes]

A Peltast in training, who hopes to attend with others from the HA .

[Kineas]

I understand your points about the dory. My issue is (and remains) that I don't need one. I need 20. Or more. And I need them to be delivered reliably in Canada.

Sigh.

I've been to your excellent website enough times to have worn an electronic groove...

[ouragos]

understand your points about the dory. My issue is (and remains) that I don't need one. I need 20. Or more. And I need them to be delivered reliably in Canada.

It is possible to purchase deepeeka sarouters on their own, albeit not easy to do. I picked up 20 for our group a few weeks ago. Speak to a 'solid' trader. I am the wrong side of the pond to you but try Christophe at Armae Sarl, tell him I told you to ask. He might be able to sort something for you.

There are only two 'commercial' ones of any use. The deepeeka (which is accurate to scale albeit a tapered socket) and Manning. You can guess the one I prefer. The old Manning plain square section was better than the new, as the new is lighter and the spike, therefore, is more prone to bending. It also balances differently. Weight is good.

If you want 20 aichmes, I would suggest you find a blacksmith and have them made. For that quantity you should get a reasonable per unit price and have the ability to get something very specific. Just don't get carried away with size. Arguments go that the larget heads were for hunting / 'spears' - dory heads were the small ones. Cerainly practical experimentation supports that theory.

Not too much iron, nice leaf and a clear ridge. How 'pointy' is down to wht your droup are planning to do with them!

Shafts - well tapered of course. There are a number of options here from a worked stave to a straight branch. Staves would be the norm, ash is always a preferred wood. Branches are more your 'field repair/mercenary' kind of thing I guess. As in a practical interpretation.

...they look good though, I have 4 like that!

[hoplite14gr]

Beotian helm, only if you allow 600 to 350 B.C.
I do not want to discourage later hoplite impressions.

Corinthian and "Illyrics" were found in the Platean tomb

Kind regards

[Kineas]

Deep breath.

(Although this is about kit for Marathon, I think perhaps we should consider having a "kit for Marathon" thread elsewhere...)

I like Paul's list,and I like Andy's reply--and most of those questions go to the roots of how people reenact, don't they?

I think that the major difference between reenactment and historical pageant is experiential. It's not always a distinction that reenactors are aware of , and it is a difference almost always lost on sites and sponsors, who care only for pageant. So--if we have a pageant, surely we can all wear polyester and cotton and carry and fiberglass armour and aspides, because we seek only to entertain the public and "look right" at fifty yards.

But reenactment is about experience--we, each one of us, want to experience what it would be like to, say, stand on the plain of Marathon and face the Medes... the better our kit is, the better it replicates what THEY wore, the better our experience AND the more honor (some would say) we do to the men and women who endured the real beast.

The ephors, so to speak, of every reenactment hobby have to show the membership the difference, and most of that is done by peer pressure and emulation.

So, on the one hand, the dory. I'm greatly saddened by what I've heard here, as there's no point (literally) to an incorrectly balanced spear (gosh, how hard is getting a spear right?) because with an incorrect spear, you'll never get the right feel to the drill.
And, I think, armour made from modern materials is wrong.
One of the major reasons it is wrong is that it gives the public the impression that doing it "right" is too hard--that life "back then" was too hard. Whereas getting everything as right as you can and then showing that you can sprint in it helps show that these guys, whether in 490 BC or 100 AD or 1642 AD or 1777AD--these guys knew what they were doing--which is often a great lesson to teach the public. (We give the same wrong impression to the public when we stand around chugging Gatorade after an action on a hot day.)

And linen is so readily available and so superior to cotton...

But... (tried to jump down from his soap box) some compromise has to be made. Manning Imperial can't make every spearhead for every Ephebe that gets recruited between now and August 2011.
It does sound like you gentlemen in the UK are making strides to get India to make better equipment. I doubt there's a more important contribution that can be made.
But (last but) I think we have to be careful to draw the line so that the young and the neodamodeis (like me, for instance!) feel that they can come and play and not have their kit sneered at... I'd be more interested in how swords hang and where people wear them in the first instance, and only later as to which hilt style is correct. We have (gets ready for incoming fire) only about 80 originals, right? And they represent a much smaller spectra than what we see on vase art... I guess I'm just saying that in every area, some admission that our knowledge is limited will leave lattitude for some stuff.

But other kit is just plain wrong, and how ever innocently we purchased it... certain brass and leather armour on the net is so obviously wrong that I suspect most educated members of the public would sneer at it...

I'm rambling. Bottom line-I think that we should err on the side of permissibility where such doesn't directly impact experience. We should require authenticity to be as exact as possible where it is cheap (linen and wool vs. cotton) and be more lenient where it is not cheap.

And eventually we should have workshops to show folks how to make their existing equipment better. I see lots of threads on painting helmets--surely some of those excellent paint jobs and a very little bit of brass-smithing can fix a multitude of sins.

Anyway. Apologies for the rant.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

What is the early Boeotian like?

[Kineas]

Look at the head of Theseus in the lower right. Thanks to Paul McDonnell in Australia for showing me this.

You can get a better look on either Perseus or the CVA. it's Oxford Ashmolean v.522. Sorry that this pic is so bad... but it is crested and it is in period... about 470 BC.

I have another couple as well but they're not really mine to re-transmit.

[Kineas]

Cool!

Now I need to get someone to mass produce them. Anyone know a maker who will fabricate 20?

[Kineas]

I'm sure Manning Imperial would make beautiful ones, but they're full up until July 2011...

Anyone in the UK?