Marathon 2011

[ouragos]

Why not try Valentine Armouries in Canada? Calgery from memory??

White Rose in the UK would do them, but like all good armourers they have a waiting list.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Why not try Valentine Armouries in Canada? Calgery from memory??

.

I believe they have moved south of the border to concentrate on film work. I could be mistaken though!

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Hey wait a minute.There is always the possibility that these helmets were actually felt hats and not metal. None such has been found and the first picture Kineas posted with Theseus,while showing a crested helmet,it's different than the following striped ones. The first one actually has no difference with the common pilos. Also note that in the second image this is a hunt scene,and in the third one it's the Hoplite's servant who's wearing it(such servants very often wear petassoi hats). I have not done extensive research on this,but just don't be too quick in purchasing a vast number of them. I admit though that one such similar helmet must have been found and was illustrated by Johny Shumate here
http://hoplitikon.com/GREEK%20ART/thrac ... ltasts.JPG
Khaire
Giannis

[Kineas]

Thanks, Andy. Their site is now at [url:1pk7y9bb]http://www.varmouries.com[/url] and I've sent an e-mail. They're in Las Vegas now. I didn't know them at all so thanks for the ref.

I'm going to try Robert Macpherson, too. He made me a 14th C. harness in the early 80s and his work is superb. [url:1pk7y9bb]http://www.lightlink.com/armory/armory.html[/url]

[Kineas]

That's funny, Giannis--I made the same point to Paul last night, and asked him (off list) if the word kunas in the Greek didn't just mean that all the Plataeans were in caps (that'd save a few dollars).

He did make some excellent points. But your point is still valid--I'm a little hesitant that every greek had a bronze helmet (I keep thinking about the Spartan comment that the Persians came to steal the poverty of Greece.

I also like to look at the 200 medimnoi for the hoplite class and think "that not a lot of money..."

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

It's like saying "not all greeks today should have a car" with basic sallary 600 euros,but most of them have more than one. A helmet was there to save your life,and it's an item that passed from father to son.Plus,it's the one and olny part of the kit,except from the shield,that is always shown on hoplites,even if they wear nothing else. Such thing with the amount of evidence we have so far a least,shouldn't be questioned by re-enactors,especially in such events. I don't know how wise it'd be to present say 20 hoplites wearing a "helmet" that is so rare in art,so rare(if at all) in archaeology,and its matterial is questionable. Perhaps it'd be good to have two or three of them,since they're mentioned seen in Marathon(or a later painting of the battle) by an ancient source.
Khaire
Giannis

[Kineas]

I appreciate your confidence that I can raise 20 hoplites! ) )

More seriously, not only do I agree with what you say, but the shear practicality of getting Boetian helmets made will probably limit us to just a few.

Knowing the anachronisms of depiction, it's all too possible that the painting showed what hoplites from the area looked like when the painting was done...of course, as it is about 1/3 of all the evidence about Plataean Hoplites, we'll take what we can get...

[Ceasar Augustus]

any suggestions where to get a complete set cheap?

[Paullus Scipio]

Ouragos/Andy wrote:-

Shafts - well tapered of course.

.......not sure about the "of course".....most shafts depicted are NOT tapered.....now arguably, that is because it is easier for a painter to make a single stroke with a brush (and end up with an "untapered" shaft) than correctly paint a taper. But the balnce point shown should tell us.....

I get the strong impression that earlier spears DID balance in the middle, and heads were larger ( see e.g. Chigi vase and many Athenian red-figure pots, and that it was later - through evolution - that larger sauroters, smaller heads and tapered shafts provided longer reach....from the late 5C perhaps? (I'm away from home and can't check )

Micon's painting of Marathon by the way was supposed to be fairly contemporary with Marathon ( Demosthenes, who refers to it, was a contemporary of Philip of Macedon ).

As to compromise, have a look at the "Carthaginian Officer 405 BC" on another thread for what can be done with a bronze facing over fibreglass.
Having said which, I am all for authentic(ish) materials - wood, brass ( close enough!) leather, rawhide, iron, wool and linen......I am in Kineas' camp here... D

Linothorax: Leather? I think there is a debate somewhere on this. Yes you can make a pretty one, but correct?

Without wishing to rehash that debate, since so many re-enactors have followed Connolly's imaginative reconstruction, they should be allowed linen corselets despite the lack of evidence for Greeks of the Marathon period and later ever wearing such a thing (contemporary tube-and-yoke corselets from Scythian,Thracian and Macedonian tombs are invariably leather, with nary a skerrick of linen in sight, nor is there any contemporary mention of Greeks wearing linen corselets in our sources - only Barbarians, and these were likely quilted.)

I would also allow Linen-covered leather ones, and all-leather, which I understand many re-enactors have....at the end of the day we can't be too equivocal about this because we just don't know for sure, so as long as you can look at a pot, and look at the re-enactor and not tell them apart......??? :? ?

[Paullus Scipio]

Ouragos/Andy wrote:-

Lamdas: There are strong arguments to support its use long before the Peloponesian. Take on Spartan World on this one! I still hate them though...

Actually, they also say that the lambda likely came in with Brasidas and the neodamodeis (c.425-420 BC)......but speaking of this site, their re-enactor in the photograph is completely innaccurate for our period and is exactly an example of what we wouldn't want, surely? 'Leather' muscled cuirass, long pteruges, wrong greaves.......and can anyone take a site seriously that asserts:-
Othismos= the initial battlefield clash of two phalanxes...???
Perioikoi =Gentlemen-rankers, second class Spartans (uu..mm.mm ...not Spartans at all.... :evil: )
Skiritae = Spartan Rangers/Commandos (!!!) :lol:
xyele = a sickle -like weapon ? :roll:

This site has far too many inaccuracies to be useful in any way whatsoever to our project here.....

[Paullus Scipio]

Giannis wrote:-

The first one actually has no difference with the common pilos.

.....I don't think this is correct,Giannis. The Peloponnesian 'commoners cap', (pilos) traditionally of dogskin, is tallish, quite conical, and has either no rim, or a very small one. The 'Boeotian' cap, also seen in Attica judging by extant pottery, is not so tall or conical, is rounder/domed, and has a broader rim....no surprise that there were regional variations.

The Greeks, it seems, were fond of making bronze versions of hats as helmets, because in addition to bronze 'Piloi', and 'Boeotians', there are bronze 'petasos' broad-brimmed sun-hats too ( probably worn by Attic cavalry). One found in Athens had dozens of close holes around the rim, and so was likely cloth covered and looked like a hat ( and from a practical viewpoint, stops the sun heating the helmet) - very reminiscent of 17/18 th C practise of 'secret' helmets worn inside hats.......

[ouragos]

get the strong impression that earlier spears DID balance in the middle,

If this is the case, the most likely evolution would be linked with the move to close order fighting (but I personally suspect that this piece of technology was designed to be held off-centre in the first place). You try maneuvering (or even lifting so that you are holding correctly) a spear with 4' sticking backwards in a formed block of troops without a, injuring one of your own and b, not actually being able to get it into the fighting position either as it gets caught on some other poor chap or his kit on the way up.

There are also practicalities involved in the use of a long spear as an effective infantry weapon when holding it in the middle. Also, and this is another debate, the grip adopted for overarm use would need to be al'a "300" because of the starting point and this grip does not fit with the art or experience of experimentation (despite a number of reenactors adopting it because it looks good).

Creating an evolutionarey long spear and then halving its effective shock length PLUS making it awkward to use as a secondary weapon once the front has broken does not hold true. If you are going to do this, why not simply put a heavy weight on the back of a standard length spear?

What's the quote about spears cracking on impact? A 9' spear is no use when standing nose to nose to the enemy - so shock impact, self-shortening mechanism (breaking!), sarouter as a 2-3' club, seamless fighting.... and 'self shortening', assisted by taper, can encourage the break to be at a more optimum point for continued use.

Also, in terms of taper, agreed ...art evidence is questionnable. But some modest weights of sarouters compared to aichme finds suggest that to achieve a decent point of balance then more weight has to be shifted somehow. There are finds of sarouters with lumps of lead added to help address this, but a number of sarouters found would not be that much heavier than a reasonable sized aichme and IF you subscribe to the off-centre argument lead, alone, will not be sufficient and a taper can make a lot of difference. I have tried it and you need a lot of lead.

As with much of this period, we hypothesise and will probably never know the true answer. Mine is just one opinion and I make no more of it than that.

[ouragos]

This site has far too many inaccuracies to be useful in any way whatsoever to our project here.....

I was not referring to the site, more to the work being done by the people involved which is not on-line. A colleague of mine (who has become associated with Spartan World) has done a lot of research around the issue of the lamda and as much as it sticks in my craw, he has uncovered a lot of strong, supporting evidence for its use a lot earlier than currently thought. I think the plan is to publish once complete.

This site, I believe, has been somewhat neglected of late in favour of another project which needed getting off the ground but is due for an overhaul. Like many formative projects it was built on a mix of enthusiasm and knowledge. Sadly, as is the case with knowledge, the less we know, the more we think we know. It takes time to realise that as Confucious says, "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance"

[ouragos]

How did I manage to post like that? **** computers :oops:

[Ceasar Augustus]

Very nice Comerus.