Gladius Handle Help...

[Matthew Amt]

Wow, Dave, I'm definitely going senile--I completely missed that detail in Tony's drawing! And now that Tony mentions it, I seem to be remembering a grip that had extensions like that, but of course I could just be senile again...

Jared, the point on a Pompeii sword can be almost 90 degrees (in other words the angle on each edge nearly 45 degrees), though I think most were a little more acute than that. But it's a pretty short point. On a Fulham, the length of the point is about one-third of the blade length.

Do you have any books? A couple of the basic Peter Connolly volumes, or even the Ospreys, would probably answer many of your questions. The line drawings from Bishop & Coulston's "Roman Military Equipment" are actually online, VERY good things to bookmark or download. There's nothing like staring at pictures for a while!

Matthew

[Nihonius Legio]

Ugh... :x
I just got done re-doing my handle. I made the grooves a little wider and the ridges more pointed. The problem is that I cut off my temporary pommel, and extra wood at the top of the handle. This made the handle way too short. It's less than 3 inches long.... Now I have to make a new one. poo
At least I'll follow the Leg XX instructions this time. This last handle was just done without much thought in the planning stages. I also tried to make a pommel. I wasnt able to make a true circle, but I saw a gallery of original swords and found a couple kindof shaped like this...

I have to sand is and such, but any problems with it?
Also, do you all just use linseed oil on the wood? Is there anything else the Romans might have used to polish the wood a bit? I dont like it being so dry feeling, if that makes sense.

For Matt: I actually just ordered a book on sword making this Monday. Jim Hrisoulas' "The Complete Bladesmith". His books were recommended to me at the beggining of this topic. I'll try to look up that online set you mentioned, thanks.

-Nihonius

[brennivs - tony drake]

Nihonivs sorry but I rang out of time to post, looking for grip pictures :lol: :lol: will get back. Off to work :twisted:
Regards Brennivs

[Nihonius Legio]

Thats alright Brennivs, try to have fun at work
I've looked at a gallery of original Roman swords that were on a link placed on the Leg XX website. I saw that there were many types of pommels, and a few types of handles. Not all even had ridges, one just had lines carved into it at a slight angle.

[Magnus]

Yep, linseed oil is perfect. I'd also skip the high carbon steel for the blade material. The romans sometimes had steel but mild steel's carbon content is pretty darn close to what they would have had.

[Nihonius Legio]

But everyone makes it sound like mild steel is pretty crappy for armor and weapons if you are actually going to use them on someone. I'm sure it must be better than bronze though right? Bronze seems to have manages to kill plenty of people in it's time. Would the Romans have even had high carbon steel? I know it's not at all authentic bad a damascus steel gladius would be freaking sweet. Speaking of damascus steel, I've never seen any armor at all made of damascus. I know its hard to make but I would think someone would make some.

[Matthew Amt]

Oh, rats! Sorry it came out short. Well, one of my workshop mottoes is "Measure thrice, cut twice!" It definitely pays to spend more time planning and just sitting and looking at the piece, mulling options, before ripping into a new project.

It was perfectly common for weapons and armor to be made from "mild" steel or even regular iron. "Crappy" in comparison to high-grade steel, but it still gets the job better than a pointed wooden stick. A good high-tin bronze with hammer-hardening can actually be harder than iron or mild steel, but iron is a lot more available (i.e., cheaper), and more forgiving to work with. So you can crank out any number of iron items pretty rapidly, while bronze requires complex molds and a lot of luck when casting the item. Hence (at least in part!) the Iron Age. Just as long as you remember that there was a lot more bronze in use in the Iron Age than there was in the Bronze Age! Yes, wacky.

I won't touch the subject of "damascus steel", there's just too much confusion on definitions, etc. Can't keep it straight in my head! BUT many Roman swords were "piled", with a core of iron that often gives a wavy line impression and steel cutting edges welded on. So maybe not "pattern welded" (though again I'm not sure of the definitions), but definitely showing the effects of forging iron and steel together.

If it sounds like I am questioning the answers rather than answering the questions, that's one of my favorite pasttimes! The more you learn, the less you know. Isn't this great?

Vale,

Matthew

[Nihonius Legio]

Lol, sure is great
So if people used more bronze in the iron age, they were using mostly sharp rocks in the bronze age or what? Just copper blades? This is all kindof off topic but hey, it's good stuff to learn.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

LOL Actually, the quality of some bronze weapons from ancient Mycenae are of such high qulaity, I doubt any can duplicate them today. I, for one, was totally flabbergasted when I saw them in Athens.

[M. Demetrius]

Well don't forget that a fist sized rock in the head can kill ya just as dead as the finest Damascus steel blade...

What gets me is that they had copper razors. I can't get copper anywhere near sharp enough to cut hair. And it won't hold an edge for love nor money. Barbering must have been pretty scary back then.

[Matthew Amt]

So if people used more bronze in the iron age, they were using mostly sharp rocks in the bronze age or what? Just copper blades? This is all kindof off topic but hey, it's good stuff to learn.

There was just a lot less metal in general, for much of the Bronze Age, though of course the amounts in use varied dramatically depending on the region. Stone tools were used in Scandinavia well into the Iron Age--stone was what they had a lot of! Places like that and the Low Countries had to import ALL their bronze, since there simply was no copper or tin found there. Overall, most places had smaller populations, too, especially compared to the huge civilizations of the Roman era. And really, while there were more bronze *weapons* in the Bronze Age, during the Iron Age there was a lot more use of bronze for everyday utensils, furnishings, that sort of thing.

I've never seen a copper razor, though there are plenty of bronze ones. They tend to be very high in tin, making them extremely hard. They'll take a very good edge. Straight copper really wasn't used much at all for weapons or other items after bronze appeared, since bronze is much easier to cast and work. But you can easily get extremely sharp edges with flint and obsidian, in fact modern surgical scalpels are available with obsidian blades! So stone can be better for some applications than surgical steel. And do remember that propellers for nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers are BRONZE, not some silly modern faddish ferrous alloy.

Here's a helpful educational video for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpeqPdVyQd0

Enjoy!

Matthew

[Nihonius Legio]

Hey thanks for the video Matthew! I'll check it out.
I actually have seen ( well in a picture) an ancient Egytian dagger that had a blade only made of copper. So though I'm sure it would bend on impact with bone, people still used it to kill. Also saw Egyptian armor made out of crocodile skin! It's amazing how much organic material has survived in Egypt, maybe thats the place to find real scutum covers and Roman stuff that rotted away everywhere else.
Anyways..any comments on the pommel I made? I have sanded it up a bit since that last pic. its not perfectly round, not at all spherical, but there were some pompeii gladii in one gallery that had pommels similar in shape. I think I'm going to find a cannon bone to make my handle with this time.

[Nihonius Legio]

Lol, that video was funny. :lol:

[PhilusEstilius]

I do agree with the drawing of a sword tang by Brennius for indeed there are many swords with this kind of tang, however I would like to introduce yet another type that I have to say I have not come across up until now. The evidence I put forward in these links may just confirm this, it comes from a sword handle Stricker plate that I found some time ago. I believe this plate has come from maybe a Spartha for it shows the blade width was only in the region of 4.3 cm.

In the pictures of this plate the upper surface gap is 35mm long where the underside gap is 43mm long, this shows that the tang had to taper from the cutting edge of the blade back to where the hand grip went on. I tend to think that with a Spartha there had to be more strength in the region of the hand guard for a downward swing. I wonder if there might be any evidence for this kind of tang for a Gladius Anyone!!

http://www.northumberland-computers.com/sextima/bld.jpg

http://www.northumberland-computers.com/sextima/sw1.jpg

http://www.northumberland-computers.com/sextima/sw2.jpg

[Matthew Amt]

Yeah, most gladius hispaniensis blades have sloped or rounded shoulders, at least the earlier ones:

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/blades.gif

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/Smihel1.jpg

Eh, lousy photo! But that's my hispaniensis blade, taken from one of those found at Smihe, Slovenia. Some of the later ones have straight shoulders and a regular guard plate, but the older ones don't seem to. And almost none of the hilts survive, so it's hard to tell if the guard was just flat-bottomed and slotted to fit over the shoulders, like I did, or if it was curved to match the shoulders. History's mysteries!

Vale,

Matthew