VEMBRACES

[caiusbeerquitius]

Isn´t the dense formation hypothetical as such as well? Polybios says that the Roman soldiers cover quite a large space each in the frontline, and the arch of Orange shows on its frieze fighting poses which are hardly possible in a dense formation. For the later second and third century and onwards I´d say yes, but earlier...?

[Cerco 21]

@Medicus Matt: Have you tried to keep a close formation while striking solely with the blade, not exposing the cross guard or hand?

We've found it quite hard to keep the wall intact, but once again my modern prejudices maybe working against me here.

You believe a tight formation was kept while charging/recieving a charge for long enough as to the simple "trust behind the shield" to be effective enough for the win?

I would belive the movements of a unit to be more fluid between legionaries.

[Medicus matt]

@Medicus Matt: Have you tried to keep a close formation while striking solely with the blade, not exposing the cross guard or hand?

Nah, I'm a hairy-arsed sword waving barbarian me. 8)

If all one's doing is thrusting a short distance then I don't see the problem, and, if what Vegetius says is true (which I know isn't always a given, that seems to be what they were (highly and repetitively) trained to do.

I wonder if we can also draw conclusions from the sword furniture itself. The lack of quillions on Roman swords might be taken as an indicator that the common reenactor injuries to thumb and index finger weren't an issue.

[Magnus]

If you are thrusting beyond your shield and exposing your arm, then you are likely doing it wrong. When in close, the guard of your gladius shouldnt be going past the shield rim. If it does, then it is exposed and fighting in close quarters now becomes medium quarters....not suited for a 20 inch blade or so.

If you maintain your situational awareness and communicate with the files beside you then the battle line can be maintained.

[Sean Manning]

@Medicus Matt: Have you tried to keep a close formation while striking solely with the blade, not exposing the cross guard or hand?

Nah, I'm a hairy-arsed sword waving barbarian me. 8)

If all one's doing is thrusting a short distance then I don't see the problem, and, if what Vegetius says is true (which I know isn't always a given, that seems to be what they were (highly and repetitively) trained to do.

I wonder if we can also draw conclusions from the sword furniture itself. The lack of quillions on Roman swords might be taken as an indicator that the common reenactor injuries to thumb and index finger weren't an issue.

When the folks from Hammaborg (coming from a 14th century sword and buckler background) began to experiment with Viking swords and shields, they were very anxious that the swords provided less hand protection than they were used to. They quickly found that the solution was proper technique: using the shield to defend and create openings, with the sword to deliver killing blows, rather than parrying with the sword.

[Dan Howard]

Asking why is always problematic. Trying to apply modern-world reasoning just doesn't work. There are countless things that they did that don't make a lot of sense to us today. The only answer we are really ever going to have is that most Roman soldiers didn't use vambraces because they saw no need for them. If more soldiers lost their hands in battle then perhaps a vambrace might have become a priority.

[joeandmich]

Look what I found in a book called "Fighting Techniques of the Ancient World: 3000 BC to 500 AD. They may not be vambraces but looks like sword arm protection to me.

[attachment=1518]romans.jpg[/attachment]

[Gaius Colletti]

That is the "manica" we were discussing before Joe. Though the time it spent in the legions is unknown, some will argue it was rarely used, others like myself argue it was used much more.

[Gaius Colletti]

Matt, if you want to think outside the box you are in the wrong hobby. If you want to experiment with things...you may want to back it up with a few years of actual reenacting experience.

I certainly am not trying to be disrespectful Matt, because of all the people here, I have the most respect for you. You have been invaluable in helping me get my kit together, and I thank you for all your help, and I look forward to working with you in Legio II, but please reread what I am emphasizing:

"As I told you before Matt, I will never wear vambraces in reenacting simply because we do not have the evidence. But I do not agree that anyone is stupid for implying or questioning that some sort of arm protection is reasonable."

[Medicus matt]

They quickly found that the solution was proper technique: using the shield to defend and create openings, with the sword to deliver killing blows, rather than parrying with the sword.

EXACTLY!

When your modern technique doesn't suit the available evidence then modify your technique, don't make stuff up to compensate.

[Dan Howard]

But I do not agree that anyone is stupid for implying or questioning that some sort of arm protection is reasonable."

This implies that the Romans and millions of other fighters from other cultures were unreasonable if they did not use arm protection. What is reasonable to us is not necessarily reasonable to someone with a different perspective. There is no evidence for Roman vambraces. For whatever reason they saw no need for them.

[Cerco 21]

But I do not agree that anyone is stupid for implying or questioning that some sort of arm protection is reasonable."

This implies that the Romans and millions of other fighters from other cultures were unreasonable if they did not use arm protection. What is reasonable to us is not necessarily reasonable to someone with a different perspective. There is no evidence for Roman vambraces. For whatever reason they saw no need for them.

Or simply the evidence did not reach us. I've always found that we should never say "That didn't existed/was used", we never know that, at most what we know is that some things were used, and even with those we aren't always clear on the extent of their use.

@Medicus Matt: I agree that you should try to fit your technique to the availabe weaposn and armor, and as such I find it very limiting to simply stab through your shield openings. Even the kite shield was reduced in size without adding extra body armor, it is very limited for defense against a flanking opponent. Again this is my biased and predjudiced view. Besides I'd rather shoot from afar :grin:

[garrelt]

What I see in this topic is the discussion if these existed or not.
Can a metallic bracelet take the force out of a blow. Yes it can.
Does cloth (a cloak) protect you against cuts. Yes it can
Does thick leather protect you from severe injuries. Yes it can.
Was metallic arm/hand protection used. Yes it was but we don't know for how long.
Is a person with an hand injury as effective as someone without. No he is not.
Did Gladiators train Legionairs. Yes they did.
Can you hide such protection under your Long sleeved tunic. Yes you can.
Was the Roman military equipment influenced by Greeks, Etruskans, Samnietes. Yes it was.
Do we have any Archaeological and iconographic evidence that in Roman times (0-400) Lower arm protection was used. No we don't.
Are there any skeletons left were it is clear that the hand has been cut off? Yes Kalkriese evidence (but were these skeletons from Legionairs or their opponents) this due to the Roman "normal" cremation practice.
But this does not have to mean that an individual Legionair could have worn some form of non-standard/non-state provided protection.
I don't have the documentation wright now, But there is written evidence that Legionairs during the Jewish wars constructed protective garments against the arrows and other missiles.

For me personally on the battle field in a fightshow with wood or steel and also because of modern insurance rules I wear protective equipment that is as natural as possible.
So no rivets, stainless steel, aluminum , Kevlar, etc or non period "fantasy" Conan/Xena-like outfits or decorations.
Of the field in display setting these protective compromises are stored away and will not be on display.

Hope the guy in the picture below had some form of protection and not broke his wrist.
In a real fight he would have lost his hand.
This picture is made during Wolin Viking Festival 7/8-08-2011
[attachment=1521]287147_219409334774675_207652092617066_557376_8218246_o.jpg[/attachment]

[Medicus matt]

it is very limited for defense against a flanking opponent.

That's what your cavalry's for. :wink:

Garrelt.
That looks nasty..unlucky too, another half second and it would have struck his gambeson....Still, he was disarmed and going down anyway so, in real combat, an amputated hand would have been the least of his worries.
That would have left a skeleton with a classic defensive wound though.

However...

But this does not have to mean that an individual Legionair could have worn some form of non-standard/non-state provided protection.

No, you're correct, it doesn't...but "Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack"?
I know different re-enactors and/or groups take different approaches but, it didn't come out of the ground or can't be supported by primary sources, I don't think it should be on display....(but, like yourself, I'd be more concerned about getting it spot on in camp where the public can get close rather than the battlefield).

But then I'm primarily a Migration period reenactor, so I can have vambraces... 8)

[garrelt]

Yes Matt

From that Period on there is some clear evidence of Splinted protection.
What is also a little bit strange is that there is evidence of lower leg guard(s), written and Archaeological, from the whole Roman era but so little from protecting the lower arm/hand.
This is also strange because the bones in the lower leg are almost the same length as those from the lower arm, so a lower leg guard could easily be fitted to the lower arm.
There are more scratches of weapon contact on my Vambraces than on my lower leg guard.
Same goes for my metal Manica that I use as a Gladiator.
And yes my main defensive weapon is my shield, big or small.
But in a full battle with about 400 fighters on the field things can happen.
After Wolin my weapon hand protective glove had to be repaired after being in contact with a 2 handed axe and my lamella needs a complete rebuild.
A lot of the Rawhide, which hold the plates together, was broken due to the impact force of the fighting.