Recreating the Herculaneum man with sword

[ROMan]

I have been looking through the RAT forum on the subject of this intriguing chap (variously called the Herculaneum soldier or marine). I would like to recreate his equipment for programming purposes while my museum, the ROM in Toronto, is having a Pompeii exhibition next year (which is top secret at the moment so please don't pass it on - I can rely on RAT, right?). I'd like to know, has anyone else replicated any of his equipment? Would you be willing to share images and info of your replica?

I have started by ordering essentially the clothing in Graham Sumner's drawing (below). Since evidence indicates he actually is a military man, and other evidence suggests it is late October, it seems sound. I have also ordered the belt from AVRIFICINA TREVERICA.

[attachment=10633]c895df3e65ec957f3ab1f0b75d06736d_2014-08-29.jpg[/attachment]

[66kbm]

Try the search option on this website and you will be very surprised at what you see.
This has been discussed many times before.
Kevin

[ROMan]

Try the search option on this website and you will be very surprised at what you see.
This has been discussed many times before.
Kevin

Yes, I have done that, and in fact have posted on several of them, but you know this since you have replied to one of them. Some older RAT posts I actually found through google, and not through the RAT search at all, and some of them are several years old. A number of people have *talked* about recreating some of this man's equipment. Hence this new thread. I'd like to *see* what they have done, if they don't mind. And with an eye to recreating the specific equipment, not just using it as a model to make something of the type.

In one of those old threads (last posted in over 5 years ago before I queried it) john m roberts wrote a reply to my query about Mark Morrow making a Mainz-handled pugio based on the Herculaneum specimen. I think this is it below. I know a number of people have hypothesized that the Herculaneum dagger is actually a cut-down sword rather than a pugio, and I was thinking to have it made in that manner.

[attachment=10634]winter-2013-092.jpg[/attachment]

A leather scabbard (below) Morrow makes is also interesting with regard to the Herculaneum dagger which does not seem to have any metal parts except for a d-ring. I had wondered if the construction might have been like this, with further leather ornamentation similar to the find at Masada.

[attachment=10635]Spartha-Katana-20-inch-Pompei-plain-sheath-011L.jpg[/attachment]

[ROMan]

I though I would add the Masada sheath fragment, from THE MILITARY EQUIPMENT FROM MASADA, GUY D. STIEBEL AND JODI MAGNESS

Leather scabbard
IN 1244-210 (Pl. 7:1)A unique leather scabbard was unearthed in a rebeldwelling in the western section of the casematewall. Its exceptional state of preservation providesus with rare details about the construction of suchitems. The scabbard is composed of two elongatedtrapezoidal—nearly triangular—parts. Originallysewed together, the two parts created a pouch. Whatappears to be the front part, dyed crimson, is deco-rated by an openwork, netlike pattern on its lower section. The decoration consists two series of threevertical registers with a narrow rectangular pattern,flanking an unpierced vertical band. The lower partof the object is ornamented by an additional hori-zontal register that frames it. As noted above, thelower part of this object is straight instead of trian-gular, as one might expect. This shape was perhapsintendedtoallowtheattachmentofametalscabbardchape to its tip. The netlike motif in openwork tech-nique is characteristic of the Mainz-type scabbards.For example, two elements belonging to a Mainz-type scabbard from Vindonissa (Switzerland) ex-hibit this pattern. In the light of this resemblance, this leather object might have adorned a Mainz-typescabbard. This, however, is only a suggestion, as nosimilar finds exist.The back part of our specimen is not as well pre-served as the front. Nevertheless, it appears to haveasimilarcutoutnet-likedesign.Unlikethefrontpartdescribed above, it lacks any traces of color. Thereare also a few more (non-joining) painted fragmentswith the remains of bound seams that fastened thetwo faces to each other. Several Roman sheathedswords are preserved with parts of wood or leather.However, to the best of our knowledge, only one ex-ample of a leather sheath (vagina) was previously published.Dimensions: length (damaged): 102 mm.; maxi-mum width (damaged): 60 mm.; thickness: 0.5–1.5mm


[attachment=10636]85-47d3b20422.jpg[/attachment]


I haven't had a chance to go to the library and look at the Vindonissa reference, but I found the Deepeeka Mainz gladius and I wonder if this is not based on the same sort of thing.
[attachment=10637]DSC01102.jpg[/attachment]

So I'm thinking of making my Herculaneum dagger as a cut-down Mainz-pattern blade, with a wood-core leather-covered scabbard with leather emulating this brass work. Maybe. Any thoughts?

[Pointer]

Robert...
Try this link. http://www.romanarmytalk.com/20-roman-re...-made.html There is a Herculaneum Pompeii hilt I made to the measurements of the Herculaneum Sword find in Mik's Book.

The one in the picture the Pommel and Guard are made of White (Premium) Holly and the Grip is made of Cow Bone.
Let me know if you'd like me to make one for you. I actually have 2 Pommels and one Guard for this sword on hand.

--Patrick

[brennivs - tony drake]

Robert the scabbard has a embossed face plate It may be a Mainz/Fullum sword or again plates have been removed from another and put onto a Pompeii scabbard but until we can see past the welded fittings on the scabbard it is difficult to see what the design is. ( I just hope I am looking at the right scabbard ) Also the dagger is much larger than the one Mark made and again I have a pic that shows both sword and dagger and it looks like a cut down Mainz.
Regards Brennivs

[Gaius Colletti]

Robert, Albion sells Herculaneum belt parts, I can't see from the picture if the plates are the same but the terminal looks to be right:

http://www.albion-swords.com/moat.htm

[ROMan]

Using images from Raffaele D'Amato's article in Ancient Warfare and others from Christian Miks' thesis, and other sources, I have come up with this drawing of the Herculaneum chap's sword grip. I used D'Amato's size of 72 cm total length rather than Miks' of 90 cm to create the scale. The image includes the main source photo, and also the grip from Graham Sumner's drawing. My apologies to Graham, as his drawing was not meant to be treated in this way but it shows details that I can't see in the photo. D'Amato describes the grip: "The cylindrical iron top of the tang, protruding from the pommel, has got four rings inserted in the side eyes. The oval pommel is in wood, with a horizontal iron embossing. The conical bone handgrip has got four grooves for a better grip, and it was attached to a wood bell-shaped hand guard, with an oval flattened surface covered by iron, again decorated with a double embossing. Traces of silver patina, still visible on the pommel and hand guard, confirm that at least they were silvered."

It looks like Graham's drawing has this "horizontal iron embossing" as grey bands in the middle of pommel and hand guard, perhaps rings set onto the wood? Of course, if these elements were silvered they would presumably be invisible anyway? Has anyone seen anything like that? So far I have only seen the Podlodow sword, but that is later.

But the biggest problem for me is the four rings inserted into the peened tang. What's that about? How does it actually work? Does anyone have photos of that?


[attachment=10661]Hercule_Sword_GRIP_2014-09-03.jpg[/attachment]

[XorX]

look here: http://www.romanarmytalk.com/20-roman-re...l?start=30
for the rings on the pommel

[ROMan]

look here: http://www.romanarmytalk.com/20-roman-re...l?start=30
for the rings on the pommel

[attachment=10685]c6187b6d0f5d.jpg[/attachment]


Very many thanks for that, the work of the redoubtable Rado, I see! The description of the Herculaneum find says that the rings go through the iron nob, but this original from Serbia is so well preserved I think I might just use that! Rado puts some tassles on the rings, but I'm wondering about suspending the sword from the rings, a technique often used by archers.

I note the original is Mainz pattern, and in the group of these ringed knobs published by Miks (Tafel 156) the only one attached to a sword in also Mainz pattern.

[ROMan]

I haven't yet come to a final solution about the ringed bit on the sword pommel, but I have been trying to work out what the scabbard looks like. At this stage I'd like to reproduce the scabbard underneath the dangly bits. Since the dangly bits are fused on, there isn't a lot visible.

[attachment=10719]Hercule_Sword_repousse.jpg[/attachment]

The above is based on the best image I could find, from here.

I have traced the dangly bits and removed them, leaving the repousse parts. This is probably only about 2/3rds of the repousse panel. I'd appreciate any opinions as to how close my tracing is to the original. This panel might be symmetrical, like the Fulham scabbard (on the right on this image), or not. If not I haven't the faintest idea what most of it looks like. If it is symmetrical, it is possible to get a general design for the panel. The lions at the bottom might then be something like this cuirass:

[attachment=10720]romsol-armour9.jpg[/attachment]

Actually, I just had a look at exactly how much of this repousse there is:
[attachment=10724]Hercule_Sword_repousse2.jpg[/attachment]

It's really about half of the panel. But then these repousse panels seem otherwise unknown on Pompeii type scabbards, is it possible it is cut-down from a panel for a Mainz pattern? That would make it shorter than the panel anyway. I'm starting to think that I should just make something up, or find out where the object actually is and go have a look!

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Brilliant! It's exactly what i have thought about that sword scabbard. I think romans dont have a monolitic separation between Mainz and Pompei swords, they made swords and decorations following fashion of the moment, but personal preferences probably too. So could be inusual a pompei Type with repousse metal face, but no need to be a Mainz one reutilization.

[ROMan]

So these are the originals I will use to make up the rest of the Herculaneum repousse panel. I've also looked at other acanthus scroll designs, but the scabbards seem the most useful, oddly enough!


[attachment=10734]Hercule_final.jpg[/attachment]

[Robert]

Doing briljant work there, Robert, on the scabbard and all. Indeed there is no strict devision, do not forget we have only a couple of scabbards preserved of the thousands apon thousands made. Who is to say what may have been fashionable.

Have you decided on what to do with those tools yet or are you just doing the weapons?

[A_Volpe]

I often wonder if the rings attached to the pommel nut ARE the decorations, themselves.

I don't think it's necessary to attach tassels or anything to those rings. If it's anything similar to the suspension rings seen
on gladius and pugio scabbards, it doesn't appear that all 4 rings are necessarily "used", it appears that it may have become a
personal preference for how they were suspended on the belt, etc.

With all of the "dangly" things on Roman Mid-Imperial period gear, between belt strap terminals, signum and vexillum standards, scabbards, even shield covers and bags (like the commachio find), it appears that fringe and dangly bits are common in that period. I don't think it's a stretch to think that some decorative rings on a sword pommel is possible.