Arrangement inside maniple: Vegetius

[Cesco]

Hi, i ask your help in finding the sources in wich Vegetius write about distances between soldier inside formation, because...i don't remeber wich they were!

[Renatus]

This is Veg. 3.14.6-7:

'Individual infantrymen regularly occupy 3 feet each. Therefore in a mile 1,666 infantrymen are ranked abreast, without light showing between them but leaving room to handle their weapons. Between line and line, they wished to have a space of 6 feet in depth behind them to give the fighting men room to move forward and back, missiles being more forcibly thrown from a running jump.' (Milner's translation)

[Olaf]

Did not Polybius also write about the frontage of a Miles inside a Cohort?

[Sextus Saturninus]

But Polybius wrote about republican troops before the Marian reforms, and Vegetius wrote about late Roman soldiers. Different time, different tactics.

[mcbishop]

But Polybius wrote about republican troops before the Marian reforms, and Vegetius wrote about late Roman soldiers. Different time, different tactics.

As Schenk might point out, it would be more accurate to say that Vegetius was a Late Roman who regurgitated more or less uncritically what others wrote (at various periods) about Roman soldiers. The fun lies in untangling the whole unholy mess ;-)

Mike Bishop

[Bryan]

Though Vegetius was writing well into the Late Empire, many of his sources, including Cato the Elder, were Mid Republic, and even pre-Polybius.

I think the general consensus reached here in RAT over the years is that Polybius' spacing (6 ft width/person and 6 ft of depth) refers to open order, while Vegetius' (3 ft width and 6 ft depth) refers to close order.

[Cesco]

Thank You Renatus!

But Polybius wrote about republican troops before the Marian reforms, and Vegetius wrote about late Roman soldiers. Different time, different tactics.

Well, Jason, you assumption is reasonable, But: i just checked the Polybius and Vegetius description, and i noticed what might be seen as a contradiction, but i don't think it is:
Polybios states (18.30) every legionary had 3 feet (90 cm) of free space to each side (so 6 feet for each soldier) and 3 feet backward: here you can read an english traduction of this pace:
...But as their method of fighting admits of individual motion for each man—because he defends his body with a shield, which he moves about to any point from which a blow is coming, and because he uses his sword both for cutting and stabbing,—it is evident that each man must have a clear space, and an interval of at least three feet both on flank and rear...
Vegetius, instead, claims that each legionary occupied, as Renatus reported, 3 feet each and 6 feet backward...and, as you may have already noticed, these measures are, compared to Polybius' ones, respectively the half and the double...wich does it means? In my opinion Vegetius gives us an answer (unfortunately i haven't an english translation of this pace):inter ordinem autem et ordinem a tergo in latum sex pedes distare uoluerunt, ut haberent pugnantes spatium accedendi atque recedendi

Maybe, and this is only my opinion, the legioneries used to deploy themselves as Vegetius claims; then, when the fight begin, alternatively , same rank's soldiers (wich is, the first man on the right no, the second one on the right yes and so on) would move backward, diagonally (accedendi atque recedendi): the result would be a "Polybius style" fomation, with more room for sword's employment.

[Cesco]

double post

[Renatus]

(unfortunately i haven't an english translation of this pace):inter ordinem autem et ordinem a tergo in latum sex pedes distare uoluerunt, ut haberent pugnantes spatium accedendi atque recedendi

This passage is part of the translation that I posted above:

'Between line and line, they wished to have a space of 6 feet in depth behind them to give the fighting men room to move forward and back . . .'

[Robert Vermaat]

Most sources agree on 4 to 2 cubits for the intrervals, from Hellenistic to Roman times.

Wheeler, Everett L. 2004-The Legion as Phalanx in the Late Empire 1 - L'Armée romaine de Dioclétian à Valentinian Ier, Actes de IIIe congrès de Lyon sur l'armée romaine, ed. Y. Le Bohec and C. Wolff, p329:
[attachment=11368]wheler.jpg[/attachment]

[Cesco]

Very very interesting Robert! Here on Rat you guys always provide very good information.

I have an illustration from Osprey wich depicts the three formation above: just a clarification: in Sunaspismòs the interval of 1,5 feet was between soldier's left shoulder to the right shoulder of his next comrade (and it should correspond to the three feet indicated by Vegetius as the space occupied by a legionary), and it doesn't represent the complessive space occupied bu each soldier (wich wouldn't have allowed any movement), does it?

[Robert Vermaat]

Very very interesting Robert! Here on Rat you guys always provide very good information.

Our pleasure!

in Sunaspismòs the interval of 1,5 feet was between soldier's left shoulder to the right shoulder of his next comrade (and it should correspond to the three feet indicated by Vegetius as the space occupied by a legionary), and it doesn't represent the complessive space occupied bu each soldier (wich wouldn't have allowed any movement), does it?

If I read Wheeler correctly, he goes by the latter: synaspismos is a very dense formation where the soldier stand shoulder to shoulder. Indeed a man is standing half-turned, one leg forward supporting the shield, which is overlapping the shield next to him.
If there had still been one cubit between each man, I think that changes of front would still have been possible.

[Cesco]

Indeed by reading the pace above it seems as you say...My mistake! Then, if we read this pace of Polybios (18.29), he clearly states:"For as a man in close order of battle (πυκνώσεις) occupies a space of three feet";
so the measures stated by Vegetius in 3.14 would correspond to the puknosis, while the sunaspismos would have been used by phalanges only (i never found a source claiming romans deployed in formation in wich soldiers occupied less than 3 feet). Then I should surely consider that Vegetius is talking about legions, and so some mesures might have been slightly different...

anyway in the attachments ther is the image i was talking about: it proves what you say: from left to right we can see the six feet order, the puknosis and the sunaspismos. The front occupied bu the phalanx is always the same: 4 m.

[Macedon]

Actually, Arrian (Tactica, 11.4) mentions that the Romans formed the testudo in synaspismos (ca. 45 cm). In later Byzantine treatises (which I personally view as very important in understanding the Roman military tradition), such close order is again mentioned in relation to the chelone and the syskouton, which are formations similar if not identical to a testudo.

[Cesco]

Mmh, maybe such a close formation might have been reached from an a acies quadrata (see Vegetius) closing his ranks...
By the way, could you provide me a link to find an online version of Arrian's tactica? I wasn't able to find it and this argoument of formations is upsetting my mind