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Scabbard from Nydam
#1
Hey everyone. I'm planning to reconstruct this scabbard. But I have some doubts and I need some hints from more experienced ones [Image: smile.png]

Please, take a look at this scabbard.
[Image: 12004013_1062234970473868_69739584708007...e=56CDF767]

What's bodering me is the question if there was a silver plate put on this bottom part. Why it came to my mind? Because fittings are very, very similar to the fittings with preserved silver plate. And if, in fact, there was a silver plate, is it possible that this convex symbol was reflected on thin silver plate which was put on it? (this is a question directed to blacksmiths I guess).
By the way, anyone has idea what does this symbol mean?
Or maybe what we see if front with this symbol while rear was covered with silver? Or maybe This is rear with symbol and the silver was placed on front which we don't see on this pic?

Another thing is the fact that we don't see any rivets on these scabbards with silver plate, yet we see 2 rivets on the scabbard without silver. Maybe it's a hint? I mean, maybe silver plate was attached mainly by 2 rivets on the front and then it was covered by this fitting around? So we see rivets going out only on the rear side? That's just theory but no matter what, there must be some rivets on these scabbards. Question is where are they and why we don't see them.

[Image: 12182857_1062234963807202_5013517448110641989_o.jpg]
[Image: 12182882_1062234973807201_6518668669570240809_o.jpg]
[Image: 12188882_1062251357138896_55992636934087...e=56CE93AC]
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#2
The scabbard in question from Nydam has the metal parts made of bronze.
There are no traces that there has been an additional plate of silver.
It belongs to Menghin's type 'Pouan' which he dates to the 2nd half 5th C.
But as this piece was found with material of Bemman/Hahne's 'Mollestad-Group', it could be dated somewhat earlier (2nd half 4th C.).

The variant with a plate instead of the "bridge" between the frame belongs to the type 'Arcy-St. Restitue' and is dated by Menghin c. 500/1st half 6th C.
The plate is just clamped between the scabbard body and the metal frame (always on the front side of the scabbard).

The third variant (type 'Alon') has the bridge combined with the plate and is also dated c. 500/1st half 6th C.

The decoration of the Nydam scabbard wood could be interpreted as a worshipping human figure.

Which are the findspots of the scabbard parts with "missing" rivets?
Perhaps I could try to find out if they really have been made without rivets.
Andreas Gagelmann
Berlin, Germany
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#3
I understand that there is no evidence for a silver plate.
But it came to my mind because:
1. Fittings, like I said, are very similar.
2. From my friend, very good Late-Rome blacksmith, I heard that it is quite easy to put thin silver plate on such symbol with this symbol being reflected on the plate.
3. It could be very easy to fall out from fitting becasue most the time, silver plate was so thin that rivets were not needed - just wrap around and hold with fittings.
4. There is a steel helmet in Miks' book. But in orginal, there was a silver plate on it. We know because a small part of silver has remaind under one rivet. In other words, it is possible to completly lose silver plate without any traces left behind.
5. My friend was making a scabbard with small silver plate and all he said about it, was that plate was falling down all the time until he glued it.

And one more thing. I have no idea if the line next to frame is going all over the scabbard or maybe it ends with the transverse fitting? I mean, if we take a close look on the top right corner, there is something like small horizontal line. So maybe this line isnt going anywhere over fittings but it's just a line next to wrap and this "bridge"?
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#4
1. Yes, they are similar, because they belong to the same group. But - as I said - there are variants with or without a plate.
Apart from the missing traces of a plate, the decorated wood is the main argument against it. The use of "Preßbleche" was popular amongst the Germanic tribes, but these plates were always pressed in shape on special models (quite a mass production for the elite) and not on the objects they decorated. I know of no example where this was the case.
It is possible that there was a leather coating on the scabbard wood which reflected the design, but in Nydam leather wasn't preserved at all.

2. That something is technically possible makes it not more probable.
The archaeological record speaks against it.

3.Of course can it be lost in some cases - in others not, but the same answer as in 1.

4. Isn't this contradictory? When there are traces of silver under a rivet, this cannot be an example for it's absence.

5. Perhaps your friend isn't that "very good" blacksmith?

The drawings from Engelhardt's 1865 Nydam publication and Bemmann's from 1998 differ in details from the photo you provided, but it seems clear from the Engelhardt drawing that the frame is only in the area between the fittings and horizontally under the bridge.

   
   
Andreas Gagelmann
Berlin, Germany
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#5
(11-03-2015, 09:44 AM)Decebalus Wrote: 5. Perhaps your friend isn't that "very good" blacksmith?

Btw, I notcied that the drawings are different on the photos. Why?

He made this, so... I leave it to you Smile

[Image: rp_budapest_07.jpg]


And thank you for clearing my doubts Smile
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#6
Wow! I'm impressed.
He is indeed very good. My Apologies.

The differences on the drawings and the photo could be best explained, I think, with the fact that this scabbard was excavated in 1863 and perhaps saw some restauration and remove of it in the last 150 years.
From which publication is the photo you provided in your first post?
Andreas Gagelmann
Berlin, Germany
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#7
ELIS BEHMER
DAS ZWEISCHNEIDIGE SCHWERT
DER GERMANISCHEN VÖLKERWANDERUNGSZEIT
1939

You might have a point because we can clearly see how this small part of transverse line in the top right corner is dissapearing. It's quite clear in 1865, not bad in 1939 and then in 1998 it dissapears completly.
Still, the symbol is weird... Wood is still there, it did not collapse or anything and I hardly can imagaine anyone scrubbing it or something.
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#8
As the 1865 drawing is the oldest image and nearer to the photo (not only chronological), I would trust it more than the 1998 drawing, which omitted the line between the "legs" of the figure, of which traces are still visible on the photo, I think.
Perhaps in 1998 they already have been worn off.
We just don't know what fate this piece had in the last 150 years.
Andreas Gagelmann
Berlin, Germany
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#9
One more thing.
My friend translated for me part about this scabbard from Behmer.
And he says (Behmer) ....dass die Scheide der allgemein vorkommenden LEDERBEKLEIDETEN Scheidenkategorie angehört... which means more or less "this sheath is part of the category of leathercloathed sheaths" but he does not say where this leather should be or anything like that.
What's more, with there is symbol made in the wood why cover it with leather? Maybe leather was on the rest part of the scabbard which did not survive?
Any ideas why Behmer said about leather and where is should be?
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#10
The scabbards could have seen - apart from the metal fittings applied after - different methods of sheathing.
Most would have been completely sheathed with leather, but bark, bast or fibre from birch or cherrywood are also known to have been used,
with or without  leather under it.
Scabbards with no sheathingat all on the wood are also known.
Behmer's examples for metal sheaths are just additions of thin gold or silver foil (often applied onto the leather!) to make the swords look more precious like the gold foil on the so called 'Goldgriffspathen' (perhaps only done for burial customs).
This thin metal would reflect underlying carving like thin leather, when applied wet to shrink to slim fit, would do.
Andreas Gagelmann
Berlin, Germany
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#11
And what do you suggest for this one? Because, honestly, I have no idea how to combine it. So many options...
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#12
I would reconstruct it with a thin leather sheath (perhaps dyed) on the whole scabbard with the carving showing through.

But what about the rest of the scabbard fittings?

Which sword type do you want to use with it?

As this piece has a rather broad dating, there are a some options you can choose from.
Andreas Gagelmann
Berlin, Germany
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#13
As for other fittings, I will use this one (don't how should I name it in english)
[Image: 12189799_1063148873715811_82356229222948...e=56C3B2FC]

As for the Spatha, it will be this one.

[Image: 12195799_1063148917049140_78046984035095...e=56C079E1]

It is very wide (57mm for blade), just like this scabbard.

Everything belongs to the Nydam exposition in Schleswig.
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#14
(11-03-2015, 10:08 AM)AustralianMagic Wrote: [quote pid='332448' dateline='1446543887']
He made this, so... I leave it to you Smile

 Your blacksmith is Robert Pustelak?
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#15
(11-05-2015, 09:18 AM)Robert Vermaat Wrote:
(11-03-2015, 10:08 AM)AustralianMagic Wrote: [quote pid='332448' dateline='1446543887']
He made this, so... I leave it to you Smile

 Your blacksmith is Robert Pustelak?


He he he... I'm lucky... Living just 5mins by car next to him Smile
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