The first part of the famous Axel Guttmann collection goes on sale at Christie's on Nov, 6.<br>
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www.christies.com/LotFinder/search/LotSummary.asp?intSaleID=17757&SN=9482<br>
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Unbelievable, magnificent stuff, including never --or rarely-- seen before roman helmets. Greek armour, bronze swords and so on. A must see.<br>
<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showLocalUserPublicProfile?login=antoninuslucretius>Antoninus Lucretius</A> at: 10/22/02 3:26:41 pm<br></i>
Ave!<br>
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cruising through the listings for Guttman's collection, I saw an imperial gallic helmet that was described as being from the 1st half of the 1st century AD, and I'm curious what if anything others make of it's lack of a brow reinforcement and the extra "eyebrows" on it. <p></p><i></i>
Salve<br>
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I have held this helmet in my very own hands!!!! If you look at the photos there are traces of soldering above the ear recesses which could have held a brow-piece, and with a bit of imagination you can imagine the reinforcement sitting just below the 'scary eyes'. Unfortunately the images on the internet don't show the details as well as they do in the catalogue.<br>
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Just because something is different doesn't mean that it isn't genuine. When I first saw the extra eyes I couldn't believe my own, but it is all kosher as far as I can see. Interestingly, the inside of the helmet is uncoated bronze/brass, and it is only the outside that is tinned. The buccalae are in some ways more curious as they more resemble Attic/Italic-type helmets rather than Gallic. I can't remember what the top of the helmet was like, but I think the remains of the crest attachment looked more Gallic than Itallic.<br>
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The tinning of the bronze fascinates me. Was it a normal practice with bronze helmets, or was it something 'special'? Perhaps Mike Bishop can tell us if helmet tinning was more common than previously thought? Certainly tinning/silvering was a mark of the higher ranks in the republic and perhaps it was carried on here. If certain theories about later bronze Gallic helmets are correct (ie they were specific to Italian raised legions) then perhaps tinning was used to differentiate the lower officers from from the hoi poloi.<br>
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Vale<br>
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Celer. <p></p><i></i>
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Some hemets are tinned, some are not. Difficult to say what is 'normal' and I am *very* wary of making generalisations along the lines of tinning/silvering=officer's equipment since so much stuff gets tinned and silvered. There are other considerations (fashion, the belief that it might prevent corrosion etc) that are equally, or even more, valid.<br>
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I do worry about those cheekpieces, though.<br>
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Mike Bishop <p></p><i></i>
You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of trifles
Blogging, tweeting, and mapping Hadrian\'s Wall... because it\'s there
I just looked at the pictures of that helmet on Christies' site and I blew up the picture.<br>
Methink the soldering marks are lateral feather holder attachments, and I don't think this one was fitted with a brow band. Given the location of the soldering points a brow band would go right across the "demonic eyes" designs on the bowl.<br>
As for the "demonic eyes", they look pretty much llike a stylised thunderbolt and wings design. The upper "eyes" being the thunderbolts.<br>
I'm working on a sketch of that thing.. <p></p><i></i>
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I have learned today that there may be a Government attempt to block the removal from Germany of significant archaeological pieces of the Gutman collection that have a definate German provenance, such as the remarkable Pompeii Gladius with scabbard from Mainz. What you are seeing now is only the tip of the iceberg. I believe Christy's has some 200 pieces of the collection and there are over 4000 catalogued, and to be eventually sold.<br>
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On the query about tinning bronze helmets, it cannot have been too common, as so many Roman helmets in period art are portrayed in a "yellow metal" color. I doubt ground or water action could completely strip the tinning from a cupric alloy helmet. Therefore one can discern from the surviving examples that it could not have been that common. Tinning on iron helmets may be another story though, as so much of the original surface is usually lost that its hard to say if they could have been tinned.<br>
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Dan <p></p><i></i>
This is how I see the helmet in question.<br>
With the solder marks as side plume holders.<br>
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<img src="http://lucretius.homestead.com/files/Christielegiofini.jpg"/> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antoninuslucretius@romanarmytalk>Antoninus Lucretius</A> at: 10/25/02 11:16:49 pm<br></i>
That looks pretty snazzy for a ranker's helmet, though people did have more time to spend on decoration in those days...they way you've repreduced the solder points they could be anchor points for a centurion's crest.<br>
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I see what someone means by being worried about the cheekpieces...those replicated shield patterns look a little...um...anachronistic?<br>
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What contemporary portrayals of golden-hued helmets DO we have? The Alexander painting I guess...what others?<br>
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E<br>
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Nice drawing. Since this helmet lacks fore and aft crest suspension loops, those solder marks may also be anchor points for a cresta traversa, making this a possible centurion's helmet. Francois Gilbert in France has made this helmet already. I wanted Deepeeka to do it, but they are not very interested since they make so many early Imperial helmets already. Maybe if we could get an order of 20 or so, they would be interested. I'd take five myself.<br>
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I am not too suspicious of the wing and thunderbolt motiff on the cheekpieces. Okay, it looks "hollywood" , but don't forget this same motiff is repeated on two unquestionably authentic swords (vindonissa and strassbourg), and numerous monuments, and of course, shields.<br>
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Spurius, just check out any book with a lot of color pictures of Roman frescoes and mosaics and you should see many representations of mostly yellow colored helmets, obviously representing bronze or orichulum.<br>
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Dan <p></p><i></i>
Actually Don that's why I was asking...I've seen a respectable number of colour plates of Roman frescos and mosaics and not that many that I recall show armour...but then I wasn't especially looking. The only one I recall clearly is the one of Alexander crossing the Granicus. But actual finds are mainly bronze or iron aren't they?<br>
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E <p></p><i></i>
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If I would have such a collection, I would have made sure, that my heirs would not sell it, or if, only altogether. I think of Marcus Aurelius and his son Commodus. Very sad if great people raise ignorant brats. <p></p><i></i>
Christian K.
No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.
Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
Unfortunately, what happens more often than not in the case of large estates or important collections is that the heirs have to sell whole or part of it in order to pay the inheritance taxes which are insanely heavy.<br>
Not to mention the fact that owning a collection as important as this one cost also a lot of money in terms of insurance, security, storage and maintenance.<br>
What happens in France and in numerous other countries is that the government has a right of preemption over items of historical value sold at auctions. Moreover, some works of art can be catalogued as national treasures and as such may be sold but cannot exit the country.<br>
However, the scattering of a great collection is always a sad sight. <p></p><i></i>
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Guttmanns son has to sell the collection because of inheritance taxes? That's a good Joke I'd say... because his father was so poor, and he cannot afford to keep it? We are talking of some of the richest people in Germany. Or at lest, one of the richest families... As far as I know, the son is a person who does not care very much about the things his father loved so much... <p></p><i></i>
Christian K.
No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.
Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
Let's put it this way: As far as I know, the son is a person who does not care very much about the things his father loved so much and doesn't want to pay insanely heavy taxes for a collection he's not really interested in.<br>
Collections come and go, taxes remain..<br>
In a more selfish way, I am pretty happy it is sold, actually, since it allowed us to see pictures of part of it, something that wasn't likely to happen if it had remained a private collection. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antoninuslucretius@romanarmytalk>Antoninus Lucretius</A> at: 10/31/02 6:57:08 pm<br></i>
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Antoninus,<br>
It is common for archaeologist and museum curators to have biases against private collectors for reasons ranging from jeolousies to the notion that only "they" have the right to possess these objects. In truth, Axel Gutmann set times every year for his collection to be seen, and loaned his objects to museum exhibitions. Don't forget too, that the most important pieces have all been published in his series of catalogues. Many museum curators and archaeologists have been far less diligent, and untold numbers of important artifacts lie locked away in museum magazines, forgotten and unknown. Dan. <p></p><i></i>
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