Nene Frontier

[John1]

Is anyone on here aware of any work ever having been done to confirm or debunk Bakers assertion that the Nene Valley formed a frontier for the Romans in the 47AD-ish period;

"The Nene Valley a Roman Frontier" - Archaeological Journal 1878 Rev R.S. Baker


https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/arc...39_352.pdf

[Coltonden]

Not proud to say I haven't even heard of this theory. Most interesting. What do you think about it, John?

[John1]

Personally I think there is something in it, but I am really not very qualified to comment. I heard of it a few months ago in a second hand pers comm that I can't reference here. This is the only paper on it I have found yet hence reaching out on here to see if I have missed something

The ridge north of the Nene is a watershed that divided the country to this day so may have been significant as a boundary even pre-Roman. The area seems to have been the meeting point of the territories of the Catuvellauni, Dobunni, Cornovii and Coritani. Maybe the Watford Gap was a nationally significant point even before McDonalds and Costa put in their franchises. The Nene-Avon line is a really obvious line to draw across the country for navigation, communications as well as defence. The Avon, Ouse, Nene, and Thames (Cherwell) all essentially rise at Hellidon making the connection almost complete with a significant central node in that area.  
   
I = Nene
II = Ouse
III = Cherwell (Thames)
IV = Avon

Bakers certainty about the Roman origin of Castle Yard as a fulcrum in the line makes a lot of sense to me. I have been thinking that would be a good location for a central stores, (as in the later Weedon Depot) in the long term but the Nene line point is well made and aligned to that idea. This would make the Castle Yard valley a known and prepared position by 61ad in time for Paulinus and Boudicca to pitch up there for their party.

So I guess I think it is more than plausible that the Nene Avon line was a distinct possibility in 47AD but also that the centre of the line was even more significant in unpicking communication in an  early Roman and pre-Roman context. If the line is good I would imagine there is a lot more to find in the Nene landscape from forts to roads.... there seems to be a small fort at Wilton/Bannaventa and I'm looking into a 19th century report that the enclosure at Wadenhoe is a large roman camp, first instinct is that if it is it is related to 61ad and bottling up the Iceni, but a 47ad origin would work too.

[Nathan Ross]

Bakers certainty about the Roman origin of Castle Yard as a fulcrum in the line makes a lot of sense to me.

Where does he mention that - in this paper or another one?

The theory is a lot to build on a single difficult line in Tacitus, but it doesn't seem too outlandish - although his idea about the name of Northampton and the 'Anglo Saxon mind', like all theories based on garbled modern place names, sounds unlikely.

How many forts would the Romans need to 'connect' the Nene and the Avon? Below what point would either river act as an effective barrier?

[John1]

Sorry, my bad, yes the Stowe ref is in vol 39;

   

https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/arc...76_082.pdf

[CaesarAugustus]

For the frontier of that period there was the Fosse Way.

[John1]

Do you know what the state of Fosse Way was at the time in 47AD?

I think The Nene-Avon line, if it exisited, was a short term screen of forts along rivers as boundary, transport and defensive features. I
imagine the Wash on the Nene was a better anchor than an undeveloped Lindum to the East and the Severn Estuary would be as far as one would have need to go west.

It think the Nene was probably navigable to Bannaventa (almost) making a Watling Street port viable. Westwards I am not sure but I would speculate there would be some similar opportunity on the Fosse Way. I might have to go looking for that link around Leamington Spa or maybe as a first line position Chesterton (SW of Harbury)

[CaesarAugustus]

Do you know what the state of Fosse Way was at the time in 47AD?

I think The Nene-Avon line, if it exisited, was a short term screen of forts along rivers as boundary, transport and defensive features. I
imagine the Wash on the Nene was a better anchor than an undeveloped Lindum to the East and the Severn Estuary would be as far as one would have need to go west.

It think the Nene was probably navigable to Bannaventa (almost) making a Watling Street port viable. Westwards I am not sure but I would speculate there would be some similar opportunity on the Fosse Way. I might have to go looking for that link around Leamington Spa or maybe as a first line position Chesterton (SW of Harbury)

The Fosse Way seems to have been established in the 47 AD. But consider it more as a military street, a frontier street, than a border. The frontier at that time was really fluid and that street was probably mainly an infrastructure for pushing the conquest, and not a well defined border or a defensive border as will be the Vallum. And infact in the immediately following years Romans arrived to Bristol and Cheshire area. More than defensive infrastructures, you could think to supply depots and forts for the conquest.

[Nathan Ross]

The Nene-Avon line, if it exisited

It might be worth looking into Baker's translation a bit further here.

castris Antonam [inter] et Sabrinam fluvios seems to be an amendation of the text, which apparently has the phrase as cis Trisantonam et Sabrinam fluvios - the Loeb version translates this passage as "overawe the whole district on this side of the Trent and Severn", the notes claim that "the Trisantona must be taken as the Trent", as "the "Trannonus" of Nennius, in the ninth century, is demonstrably the Trent."

The context of the event seems to be the direct aftermath of the Iceni uprising of AD47, so the Loeb version seems to make more sense - if 'castris' is correct, it would seem more likely that Ostorius would put his camps along the borders of Iceni territory, rather than across the country, so perhaps both river names are wrongly identified, or refer to the Ouse and the Orwell, perhaps, which might better enclose Iceni land.

[John1]

Rumour has it there is a chapter on the theory in this book (which I am too late to put on my Christmas list);

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Romans-East-Eng...0752441183

Anyone read it? Got a copy?

[John1]

From Chapter 2 :

"By 47 AD the Roman army controlled all of England to the south of a line that ran from the river Severn to the Trent, the so-called ‘Fosse Way Frontier’ which linked by road the sites at Exeter and Lincoln - this left the territory of the Catuvellauni well within the ‘conquered zone’ .

It is possible that an earlier ‘line of advance’ existed prior to that established between the Severn and Trent frontier. The valley of the river Nene could well have formed a boundary at which the Roman military would have halted at the end of a campaigning season before advancing further to the north and west the following spring. The geography of the area and its natural features which could easily be defended would not have been missed by the Roman planners and the first century river Nene, with its wide and un-drained course, would have consisted of an expanse of alluvial marsh with a myriad of channels flowing along the base of its valley - a very defensible barrier."

The Romans in the East of England; 
Settlement and Landscape in the Lower Nene Valley: 
Occupation, Settlement and Industry in the Nene Valley 
(Upex 2008)

Turns out Upex was unaware of the Baker paper/theory when he wrote this.

[CaesarAugustus]

I would say that it is confirming the scenario we have depicted before. The limes as logistic infrastructure in support of further conquests.

[John1]

Nathan wrote:

"It might be worth looking into Baker's translation a bit further here.

castris Antonam [inter] et Sabrinam fluvios seems to be an amendation of the text, which apparently has the phrase as cis Trisantonam et Sabrinam fluvios - the Loeb version translates this passage as "overawe the whole district on this side of the Trent and Severn", the notes claim that "the Trisantona must be taken as the Trent", as "the "Trannonus" of Nennius, in the ninth century, is demonstrably the Trent."

The context of the event seems to be the direct aftermath of the Iceni uprising of AD47, so the Loeb version seems to make more sense - if 'castris' is correct, it would seem more likely that Ostorius would put his camps along the borders of Iceni territory, rather than across the country, so perhaps both river names are wrongly identified, or refer to the Ouse and the Orwell, perhaps, which might better enclose Iceni land."

Response:

Tacitus Book 12 item 31 is the bit that needs unpicking;

Baker 1891 reads this as "Cinctos que castris Antonam (inventing a new name for the Nene) et Sabrinam (Severn) fluvios cohibere parat"
Bradley 1883 reads the same text as "Cunctosque cis Trisantonam (inventing a new name for the Trent) et Sabrinam (Severn) fluvios cohibere parat"

So Ostorius either had a line on the Nene/Avon or the Trent /Avon. Bradley splitting "Castris"  to "cis-Tris" is the basis for this.
If Baker is correct then this moves the Fosse frontier of 47AD back to the Nene. The Nene seems to make more strategic sense, being shorter and having more apparent fortification (Roman and Re-cycled British).

Nathan wrote;
"it would seem more likely that Ostorius would put his camps along the borders of Iceni territory"

1 I think the Nene in the East is looking like it is the Iceni frontier.
2 If the point of the fortification were on an island sized scale making a cell out of the Iceni wouldn't be too important.
3 In 47AD would the Iceni be more miffed about a border line on the Nene or somewhere up north (Fosse Way)

Has anyone got the original Tactitus to hand - I mean original - to sort out this spat? 'cos I don't think the Loeb is going to cut it at this level......

[John1]

I'm still looking at the Fosse Way as a Frontier pre-61AD. The foundation date of Lindum seems pretty loosely defined (not using the best sources and looking for better);

"It (Lindum) was founded as a Roman Legionary Fortress during the reign of the Emperor Nero (58–68 AD) or possibly later." Wikipedia

So the balance of probability in that statement is that Lindum wasn't a destination until post 61AD. So why is the Fosse frontier a likely thing in 61AD?