Archaeologists find western world\'s oldest map

[hoplite14gr]

The Antikythira's Calculator was an astronomical instrument of great value . A system of 30 different wheel gears informed the user about the moves of the Sun , the moon and the other planets in the Solar System.

It was manufactured in 80 B.C. (at least)
It is the first Calculator in the history of mankind
it is exhibited at the Archaeological Museum of Athens

[hoplite14gr]

And I aggree with Jim.
What is today taught in Commando schools used to be fairly common knowledge for our ancestors
Kind regards
Stefanos

[L. Aufidius Pantera]

all points happily taken (though on the tree and moss issue I believe there are regional variants. As a little boyscout I always learnt that moss grew on the West side of a tree (this being the primary direction where wind comes from in Northern Germany - but doesn't apply to e.g. east coast of England...

but if the knowledge of spatial representation was known to the Romans, why didn't they use it? Was it then a case of format? I.e. sth like a Peutinger table can be carried in a scroll, whereas an actual space representation of the world would have filled the floorspace of a small forum at any useful scale? Probably more likely, considering that the Forma Urbis is also a (more or less accurate) real space representation of the city of Rome... (OK, so I have answered my question above - unless this method of representation was only an issue when dealing with larger scales... :oops: )

Jasper - as for periploi, are there any Roman ones? Or are they all Greek (in the widest possible sense...)

C.

[Praefectusclassis]

Well, two of the best known periploi are from the Imperial era, IIRC. Ps.Strabo's Periplous of the Red Sea and of course Arrian's Periplous of the Black Sea. The latter could certainly be interpreted with an eye for military/naval relevant details (i.e. where can your short-range galleys beach and find water?)

[L. Aufidius Pantera]

Ah, yes, Arrian.

Sorry - had misunderstood you, assumed you actually meant ones in map form (are there any? Would be fun)

As for Arrian though - does anyone know if the periplous is available somewhere online (in translation? My Greek is abismal) - Last time I looked Perseus didn't yet have it. And someone seems to have eaten our only copy...

C.

[Praefectusclassis]

I swear I saw it online somewhere, but of course I can't find it now. I do know that I photocopied the whole thing years ago. Need any thing specific?
And as far as I know, no preiploi are in map form. In fact, you might wonder if that is not - by definition - something completely different.

[Kate Gilliver]

I've not been able to find Arrian's periplus on-line - had go to over to the library the other week to grab a copy hock: (so used to finding nearly everything on the web these days).
There's a text / English translation by Bristol Classical Press and also a Bude (how do you do acutes on this thing?) text / French translation.

[L. Aufidius Pantera]

In fact, you might wonder if that is not - by definition - something completely different

:oops: I do sound stupid when I say things like that, don't I??? :oops:

Didn't mean "map" in the mappy sense of the word...but rather a Peutinger table kind of job (would that mean the ends are connecting???? interesting idea, only thus could you achieve a true periplous! Imagine, you could stand "inside" the "map")

Well. I shall go on shovelling my way deeper into this hole...

C.

[Praefectusclassis]

Somehow I feel that this whole discussion makes some of Mattern's theories ([amazon]Mattern, Rome and the Enemy[/amazon]) distinctly shakey. That is, if that earthenware stamp is what it looks like.

[floofthegoof]

I haven't read it. Can you summarize?

[Praefectusclassis]

Well, from what I remember (but I'll look again), one of her chapters deals with the idea of maps and image of the shape of the world in ancient times. She is very pessemistic about it.

[A_Volpe]

Am I reading this correctly?

The encircled area, from left to right:

GRAXA (Gamma Rho Alpha Ksi Alpha), NAR (Nu Alpha Rho), * STY (Sigma Tau Upsilon, * MIOS (Mu Iota Omikron Sigma)

* BAL (Beta Alpha Lambda), * SOL (Sig. Om. Lam.)

* OIAN (Omk. Io. Al. Nu), BAS (Bet. Al. Sig.)

LIOS (Lam. Io. Omk. Sig.)

- On the Left side of the encircled area:
TARAS (Tau, Al. Rh. Al. Sig) - Mountains?

- On the Right:
HYDR (Eta Ups. Delta Rh.) - Hydra? More mountains? But Wouldn't "Hyrda" indicate a body of water?

- Just below that, is that LIK (Lam. Io. Kappa)?

Just curious if my Greek is rusty or not...
8)

That's pretty cool. I also love the Antikythros Calculator, I did a little report on it back in College, It's just so fascinating...When is someone going to come out with a Repro of that?

[Comerus Gallus]

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[Praefectusclassis]

The map publishers indicated that the vvvv areas are sea, not mountains. Would make more sense too, if this is the very heel of Italy. That's kinda surrounded by watery stuff.

[hoplite14gr]

Your Greek is fine Andy. The alphabet used is the Beotian from which the Latin alphabet evolved. The X might be I -looks like "runic" because the Kymeans wrote the I (GIOTA) in a stange way so it might be GRAIA(old woman-reference for godess Dimitra). That is why I offered both explanations. But it is positive that the term Greeks evolved in the West from that place because its possibly the oldest Greek colony in the west.
There linear B tablets in Pylos and Patra refering to the name so it might have benn established in the Bronze age.
Kind regards
Stefanos