Wearing Phalerae

[Kate Gilliver]

Request for input from re-enactors. This may sound nutty, but please bear with me.
Has anyone tried wearing a set of phalerae with segmented armour? The only re-enactors I've seen wearing any military decorations have been centurions and possibly optiones (?), and as far as I recall they were wearing mail. How easy / difficult is it to get a set of phalerae on a harness on segmented armour?
If you've tried it, I'd appreciate your input. Or run out there this weekend and have a try!
thanks in advance

Kate

[Tib. Gabinius]

Greetings Kate,
not only these guys wear it, also some of the signwearing reenactors use them...

Do you have any sources on which its shown how a segmented man wear them?
Perhaps V.A. Maxfiel wrote something about it in "the military decorations of the roman army", but no clue.

I personally never tried to get someone on, but its possible. You just have to use longer strips of leather to do it, but then it wouldnt fit the person without his lorica.
The advantage of the hamata is, that it looks like the normal body with one mor to cm more, so the set will fit also if he leaves his armour home.
If you make your set in a way it fits to your segmentata it will hang down and move all the time you make a step or turn. So it wouldn be practicable.
In case this is no argument (i dont have a source by the hand for an unarmoured phalerae wearing person) i would say, this would cut in the discussion if officers wear a segmentata at all.

I hoped i could be helpfuel a little bit at all

[Magnus]

This topic kind of crosses over with the "did officers/Sr. NCO's wear segmentata". With the exception of some tombstones, most of the "full body" sculptoral evidence seems to indicate that such a harness was only worn with maille.

When such awards accumulated to the point where a harness was required, maybe they had been promoted and had turned in their segmentata...allowing for more room for medals and decorations. But that's all heresay...the problem is the lack of evidence. Can such a medal harness be worn with a segmentata? Sure...was there any proof that it was? Not really.

I'd be more inclined, where I a segmented legionary, to wear most of my decorations while only in a tunic. Less chance of getting them damaged this way.

[FAVENTIANVS]

Rusty Myers from Legio VI Ferrata wears them over a lorica musculata.

http://legvi.tripod.com/

[John M McDermott]

I have tried my phalarae over my segmentata, and, yes, you need longer straps. The look is pretty impressive. However, as has been pointed out, it seems to be a rule that that wasn't done. It would be nice to see this rule disproved by some good evidence.

[rusty myers]

I have no problem with adjusting the waist strap, the shoulders are the same or so close I do not notice the problem. Really have a lot more trouble with Soldier belts not fitting them out of armor. I have about 8 inches of adjustment bult into my Phalarae waist belt. I wear it with my musculata, chain mail, and I can wear it over a subarmalis or tunic with little adjustment. May be that I wear it lower out of the musculata, never really noticed.

Rusty Myers
www.legvi.com

[Kate Gilliver]

Thanks for the feedback, and I like the photo of you, Rusty, you look ab. fab! Your crest is most impressive! Not trying to be funny, I'm just working on soldiers' appearance in battle, hence the question about phalerae.
No phalerae depicted on segmentata, probably because no segmentata depicted on private monuments (as far as I recall). Will now have to rush through T's Col etc. to see if any public monuments show decorations.
I am now going to ferment revolution (so apologies to all the centurions out there). You don't have to be an officer to have military decorations. I've never seen a gregalis in a living history group with decorations - are there any? If not why not?!!

cheers for the help
Kate

[Crispvs]

Kate,

I am not convinced that soldiers would have worn their decorations in combat or whilst on campaign. Whilst the wearing of decorations would help to re-enforce the prowess of a soldier in the eyes of his comrades, campaign conditions would also increase the possibilities of loss or damage to valued items. Unlike a decorated dagger sheath, which is functional and therefore worth carrying, even if it risks being damaged, phalerae and torcs (and maybe armilliae too) are not functional in the same way and would also increase the burden being carried by the soldier. Even if a centurio had a horse to ride and his own cart in the baggage train, weight and space would still be a consideration. The army clearly did not take everything with it on campaign, and along with their pottery cooking pots and (possible) bunk beds they may have left their decorations safely at home too. It is hard to imagine anyone taking a military crown with them, for instance, on campaign.

I will support your 'revolution' though, as I am unconvinced by arguments which try to state that that centuriones would not have worn segmentata, and also see no reason why common soldiers would not be able to win decorations by their actions. After all, it was ability demonstrated by action which earned many if not most centuriones their crista traversa and vitis in the first place. Be careful about relying too much on Trajan's column. Bear in mind its stylistic and artistic limitations and approach it with caution.

In answer to your question about milites gregarii in re-enactment groups wearing decorations, a number of our group do. The only soldiers to possess sets of phalerae are two of the officers, but a number of us wear armilliae. If a member can get it past Peronis, Fatalis and my close scrutiny and has a good argument then he can wear it.

Crispvs
Miles <Mestrii
Vex Leg XIIII Gem Mart Vict

[Aluscladiusmaximus]

All the I have seen are beaten out thin sheet metal. They would not survive 10 mins in combat the first time someone pushed your shield back onto your chest they would be flattened. Having said that I don't think they would have left them at the fortress as it was not certain when a legion marched out they would be returning to that base again.

Aulus Cladius Maximus

[Tarbicus]

Whilst the wearing of decorations would help to re-enforce the prowess of a soldier in the eyes of his comrades, campaign conditions would also increase the possibilities of loss or damage to valued items.

There is definitely a source text mentioning the looting of decorations during battle; a centurion was robbed of his decorations after he fell during one of the civil wars (?), I just can't remember which source it's from. :roll:

[Tib. Gabinius]

Salvete,
we know about awards which were given to the simple soldiers, the gregalis. Like the coronae civica, for standing the ground of another man and saving his live. This must be shown as decoration also, but theres no idea how to were a coronae in battle, cause it dosnt makes sence.

And while there is a large group of tombestones, showing these decorations, the most scenes of battle like on the columns of Trajan and Marcus Aurelius dosnt showing anything like this, the only awards seen are these on the signa.

And just my opinion, i dont want stand in line, decorated all over with gold and silver whilst my comrads just wear their combat dress...

[Praefectusclassis]

And just my opinion, i dont want stand in line, decorated all over with gold and silver whilst my comrads just wear their combat dress

But Romans would love to stand out like that! It's the best possible proof of their virtus.

[Tib. Gabinius]

Yeah, perhaps in their talking
The best proof of the virtus, and that shows even the gladiatores, would be to stand without much armor in a single fight, but thats forbidden since the republic. Perhaps you remember the stories about the father who killed his son cause he duelled against his orders...

The germans started to make it another way in roman army, they really wear a lot of yewel(imitations), gold and silver covered armors and so on, but htats in later times...
what i ment was: we know that the signiferes had to have antesignani to protect em, so it wasnt a good idea to look to tasty for barbarians, and perhaps a lot of (or Loot?) gold and "blingbling" would get their fully attention.
Perhaps there would be a brave men who risked this, but i dont believe that the mass would liked that...

[Comerus Gallus]

Tib. that just recall me an episode in the Iliadas, I can recall the name of one of the allies Kings of Troy ( a Thracian king?), Hommer say that he was so highly or richly decorated in gold, that cost him his life! :lol: , but its funny how Hommer describe it.

[Tarbicus]

Salvete,
And just my opinion, i dont want stand in line, decorated all over with gold and silver whilst my comrads just wear their combat dress...

...so it wasnt a good idea to look to tasty for barbarians, and perhaps a lot of (or Loot?) gold and "blingbling" would get their fully attention....

I think that transplants a 21st C characteristic onto people living 2000 years ago, whose limits of camouflage were putting bushes on their helmets, and that's about it.

You are talking about a group of men who took great pride in noisy boots and jingling belts, and the shinier the better from what I can tell. 'Bling' was the in-thing then I'm certain, and the more there was the better. As for a signifer trying to keep low-key, I think the tall shiny thing and the big bear stuck to his hat gave the game away somehow :wink:

As for barabarians, you suggest the Roman bruisers were scared of them. I don't think it was so much of an issue, and when they were taken aback the officers, by accounts, took the situation under control.