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Well I disagree with it not being much use, but that is only my opinion! 
If it is cost that you are worried about then I will have to concede the point.
But then a cloak is to keep you warm, and the legs of a legionary would be important to him I would guess. I know when I am out in the elements for 12 hours a day, I feel the cold even with thermal undies and 2 layers of clothing on top!  How ever, the heat trapping properties of my paenula are far greater than I would have imagined.
As is seen in many representations of paenulas, they are usually hitched up over shoulder when any action was imminent, or probably discarded altogether when going into battle! So they would not be that great of an encumbrance, far out weighed by their usefulness! 8)
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
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Byron Angel
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Quote:But then a cloak is to keep you warm, and the legs of a legionary would be important to him I would guess.
Agreed. I would then, however, rather have a double layered halfcircle paenula as this is large enough to go all the way around and still close in front. If I was concerned the lower edge comes up too far because of armor and such, I'd want to increase the radius of the halfcircle rather then the length of the lower edge (what you effectively do with a full circle)
Nice to see you can be just as stubborn as myself, Byron ;-) )
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Martin wrote:
Quote:I'm with Graham in that a paenula of half-cicular/-oval (or a bit more than that) cut is the way to go.
Well it is no theory of mine I am only going by the original surviving cloaks rather than attempting to interpret measurements or shapes from the sculptural sources alone. There are still similar designs of cloaks made by the Berbers in the Atlas mountains.
The dimensions for a military Sagum style cloak in the papyrus document BGU1564 are 2.66m long x 1.77m wide. This corresponds to the Thorsberg cloak which is 2.50m x 1.68m or a cloak from Nahal Hever which was 2.70m x 1.40m. So Sagum cloaks are roughly envelope shaped rather than square. ( Robert are you confusing folding in half to 'double' the thickness, rather than 'double' the measurement?)
There was a smaller cloak the Sagulum and undercloaks or overcoats for extra warmth.
A late Roman circular (oval shaped) cloak without a hood found in Egypt was 2.86m x 2.42m
Hope this helps.
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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'A late Roman circular (oval shaped) cloak without a hood found in Egypt was 2.86m x 2.42m '
Which folded in two, would give a nice, 1.44 m x 2.42 m VIth century semicircular chlamys, rectangular tablions included 8)
That one should be my next reconstructive attempt. Ive got a nice herringbone twill bought from Cacaius. My main concern is how to conceal the seam, as the fabric is only 1.5 m wide :?
![[Image: Constantius.jpg]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tribunus/Constantius.jpg)
Look at the hem. If a tablet-woven selvedge is not what the carver intended to depict, then whe have a mantle folded in two.
Aitor
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Quote:Well it is no theory of mine
Sorry for not being clearer on this - what I meant was, as you say, your interpretation and reconstruction of depictions and surviving objects.
Quote:A late Roman circular (oval shaped) cloak without a hood found in Egypt was 2.86m x 2.42m
Very interesting! Do you happen to know whether it has a central opening (in order to wear it poncho style) or not, which would point towards the style it was carried. And does it have a paenula style opening?
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Martin wrote:
Quote:Very interesting! Do you happen to know whether it has a central opening (in order to wear it poncho style) or not, which would point towards the style it was carried. And does it have a paenula style opening?
Sadly I have not seen the original but it does not appear to have any openings central or otherwise. There is a plan of it showing the tablions in RMC 2. As Aitor has said it is then simply folded in two and draped over the body so the tablions are visible front and back as he has illustrated.
Another interesting point is that even the nice ivory carving that Aitor has shown would originally have been coloured!
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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Quote:( Robert are you confusing folding in half to 'double' the thickness, rather than 'double' the measurement?)
Probably. I meant that while mine is app. 3x1.5, it should be 3x3.
Thanks, Graham.
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'Another interesting point is that even the nice ivory carving that Aitor has shown would originally have been coloured! '
No doubt, Graham! 
Unfortunately, I've been only able to see B/W pics of this fine dyptich...
Late IVth/Vth century 'common' (Excluding imperial ones) tabliones seem to be square and richly embroidered, while VIth century and later ones seem to be rectangular and plain.
Here is the courtier receiving something from Theodosius on the famous missorium at Madrid:
![[Image: TeodosioA.jpg]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tribunus/TeodosioA.jpg)
Aitor
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Aitor wrote:
Quote:No doubt, Graham!
Unfortunately, I've been only able to see B/W pics of this fine dyptich...
There may not be any colour left on that particular one Aitor but I have seen traces of colour on another! It seems strange for modern tastes to do something like that with ivory which is appreciated for its appearence as a material.
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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Just only for modern tastes, Graham! :wink:
Non-coloured stone or ivory would have been un-thinkable for Ancient or Mediaeval tastes!
Aitor
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.
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Aitor I had to put a seam down the back of my panuela, and I thought I might hide the seam with a strip of cardwoven trim.
What do you think of that?
"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
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Hi Paul,
Cardwoven trim was often used on ancient garments, but it tended to go always following the edges, not in the middle... :?
I plan to conceal my seam behind the fold (i.e. 2.86 = 1.50 + 1.36, fold it at 1.43 and leave tha seam att he 'inner' half)
Anyway, if the result is good-looking, I wouldn't dare to 'lecture' against it from the top of a soap-box... :wink:
Aitor
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.
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Mine is directly down the back, so its very visable to anyone who wants to see it. That is why I had the idea to cover it with a piece of cardwoven trim. Then again I might cut a piece of plan wool of a different colour and sew it over it to make it look like a clavi.
"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
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Yes, if you cannot hide it, make it look as if intended... :wink:
Mmmmh, maybe a card-woven trim would be better than a lonely clavus :? (just my two cents)
What do you think about that, Graham :?:
Aitor
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.
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Aitor wrote:
Quote:Yes, if you cannot hide it, make it look as if intended...
(just my two cents)
What do you think about that, Graham
I would certainly agree with that. Paul I presume you did that beacuse you could not get a piece of material large enough.
There was an industry making new clothes out of old and soldiers undoubtedly had to repair things. As Aitor said make it look like it was intended.
Aitor I have just read your other post on the Thorsberg cloak. I have sent you an email.
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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