Fencing as a Roman

[richsc]

Yes, have to see if the pants are made in the contact fabric as well. I haven't seen them yet but in epee combat all the body is a target. In sabre everything above the waist is a target, and with the foil you have just the torso I believe.

As to shields, I was wondering how to simulate having a sword stick in the shield face. Not sure if that is a real thing that happened but wanted to ask opinions. Even a split second stuck in a shield could be fatal, and that should be accounted for.

[Avatar]

Use wooden swords(so-called wasters), perhaps dipped in water soluble(spl?) paint to mark hits. I think that would work well. Sure, you might bruise some knuckles, but it beats loosing fingers.

As an alternative, you have latex weapons with a wooden core. I've used it before in LARP, and it works well. Little risk of injury, though ofcourse, the weapons will be lighter than the real thing.

[madoc]

Plenty of groups in the UK fight with blunted metal swords.
We do.

A number of groups that I have been in hold contests between two individuals where there are "judges" on the sidelines monitoring "hits". I've done it.

Depending on the system used, then it's either limited target areas and "touch" contact to fairly hard blows but for that you have to wear correct period armour, padding, helmet etc.

I was practicing on a sunday night where we put on fencing helmets.

Sure, you get a bruise or two.

[madoc]

forgot to say that you have to actually introduce some sort of "fight style" rules to make things a liitle more period accurate, otherwise it just turns into a fencing match with some period armour on.

1. sharp things stick in wooden shields so you discourage direct heavy thrusts or cuts at shields. This is a big re-enactorism.

2. avoid parrying everything with your sword. In real life they are simply not strong enough for the heavy "sword play" you see at many events. Metal edged shields also play complete havoc with edged weapons.

3. certain weapon styles are also better in re-enactment terms or simply ape later styles (gladius and pugio anyone ?) so you have to discourage them as well.

[richsc]

It may be impossible to recreate every possibility. The metal edged shields may have had the specific purpose of blunting or otherwise impeding a sword.
I would think that a sword getting stuck would be a big part of the realism, so causing a sword to stick for short period of time would be realistic, I would think.

[richsc]

Here's what a modern competitive saber fencer electrical lame target covers: everything above the waist except for one hand. One website has the cost as $260 which includes the cable to connect helmet to jacket.



I haven't seen any lame pants, but epee does not require the lame targets that foil and sabre do.

[TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS]

Sure, if you use an electric score system like in sport fencing metal masks are needed. So the choice could be just among roman sports masks, SCA masks or Kendo masks, properly attuned to the roman gear and helmets.
Seen the fencing cables are impossible to be managed in a group combat..., does some wireless systems exist by one little antenna per fighter?

Valete,

[Tarbicus]

I think you're forgetting that the epee is very flexible whereas a gladius and spatha are not. I'm sure that will give many problems if you want to use metal swords, and even cause serious injury.

[richsc]

I see no reason why they can't be wireless: in fact, I wonder why they haven't thought of that one as the wires look so cumbersome on fencers.

It would have to be a metal edged, or at least electrically conductive sword I suppose. An epee is flexible if you hit it sideways, but point on it does not flex much at all. Foil does. Saber is an edged weapon though when I did it most hits were the edge traveling sideways, say against the facemask or over the head.

[Tarbicus]

The epee flexes enough to snap, which has happened to me a few times many many moons ago. I don't think a gladius would ever do that, and if a thrust is strong enough something will give which I doubt would be the gladius.

[Graham Sumner]

Hi

Perhaps not in the right thread but nevertheless I am surprised at the complete lack of comment so far, on the fighting style and pose of the late Roman figure Ross Cowan wanted me to illustrate for his article in Military Illustrated magazine (see Reference and Review thread for the illustration). Some comments therefore would be appreciated from you fencing types!

Graham.

[Robert Vermaat]

I am surprised at the complete lack of comment so far, on the fighting style and pose of the late Roman figure Ross Cowan wanted me to illustrate for his article in Military Illustrated magazine (see Reference and Review thread for the illustration). Some comments therefore would be appreciated from you fencing types!

This being the said picture:
[url:1mofb6p9]http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/download.php?id=1076[/url]

[madoc]

That stance , Graham. looks to be straight out of a 15th century sword manual:

http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals/Talhoffe ... itions.htm


The problem with simulating this period at the level of detail you need is that there is nothing to go from.


With regards to metal edges, radomir Pleiner in his book on the celtic sword (where he analyses the carbon content in different period weapons to see just how tough they are) actually produces one and then tests it. One of the tests was against a metal edge (as found on a shield) and it sustained some pretty heavy damage from one strike.

In all this is that you need sharp weapons and wooden shields and period armour and no limit on target areas. Until we eventually move back to gladiatorial contests (and the way entertainment is going, you could see it happening) then you will never know.

Until that time, re-enactors with plenty of experience are the way forward not sport fencers. Many of the chaps in our group study tallhoffer as well as other period stuff with documentation.

[richsc]

The epee flexes enough to snap

No doubt they actually did, but when pointy they're much more likely to slide through a body than snag, as a fencing epee would with it's small blunt tip.

As to the stance, surely that's not a two handed spatha grip?

I need to find the maker of the lame to find out if it is sold as fabric: any thoughts on where to find some?

[Graham Sumner]

As to the stance, surely that's not a two handed spatha grip?

That stance , Graham. looks to be straight out of a 15th century sword manual:

I think the point was (excuse the pun) an explanation for the very narrow pointed blades of some late Roman swords. If they are different do they have another purpose and would it mean a different fighting style?

The problem with simulating this period at the level of detail you need is that there is nothing to go from.

That goes for a lot of things Roman!

I have read one description of Roman fighting on foot which mentions crouching low and then leaping up to strike downwards at the opponent. I am sure I have never seen any re-enactors do that!


Graham.