Reconstruction of Felt Subarmalis and Linen Pteryges

[Magnus]

How did they make felt back then?

[Marcus Julius]

Doc,
2) are you going to encase the torso in a layer of linen and then quilt it? ...in the diamond pattern?

I had always thought subarmalis to have been quilted, too. :?:

[Hibernicus]

I had always thought subarmalis to have been quilted, too. Question
_________________
Marcus Julius Germanus
m.k.a. Brian Biesemeyer

I'm not sure we can claim that all such garments were quilted in say a diamond pattern but quilting or ticking with the felt between layers of cloth are well know methods for securing the felted materials to itself, to prevent it from de-felting or otherwise falling apart.

Another method for creating padding in a subarmalis is to use woven wool fabric and "full" it. Fulling or waulking.

Waulking songs... but that's another subject.

[AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs]

Ave,

Can you ask the tailor a question or two?

Did he make each Pteryges separately?
Did he fold over the edges of each Pteryge?
When he says he twisted the extra felt which naturally occurs… can he elaborate on that? Because if I cut a rectangle from felt, there isn’t any naturally hanging threads anywhere near long enough to twist into tassels. Did he cut them up, leaving several long slivers, and then cut them again and twist those?

Also, I’m quite certain several members would be interested in purchasing the subarmails but, is the tailor willing to take a few step-by-step photos for those of us that might want to tackle this project ourselves?

THANKS!

[FlaviusCrispus]

Antonius wrote:

When he says he twisted the extra felt which naturally occurs… can he elaborate on that? Because if I cut a rectangle from felt, there isn’t any naturally hanging threads anywhere near long enough to twist into tassels. Did he cut them up, leaving several long slivers, and then cut them again and twist those?

Doc (initially) wrote:

Then there are the pteryges made from layered linen and then enveloped in a finer linen stiched on using a metallic thread. These pteryges were designed using some of the statues found on tclark's web site and in books elsewhere.

Note that the material inside each pteruge is layered linen, not felt.

Linen will fray, if cut and left un-hemmed. But I do wonder if he "helped" the process along somewhat by cutting the edge into strips and twisting them, as you suggest.

I might be interested in ordering one of these subarmali. Can you provide contact info for the tailor?[/code]

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

"This message is from my friend:

"Since so many people gave a positive response and I know most people have leather pteryges and would like to have linen ones, please contact me if you are interested in purchasing from me the pteryges made in the same fashion I made mine. I will make the pteryges to your specifications of course.

The e-mail is [email protected]
Other options are available such as leather and other fringe types. You can contact me with your details and I will let you know what can be done and the cost. "

Here is what Doc posted earlier!

[Theodosius the Great]

I think leather is just as legitamate an option as linen. The reconstruction is very well made but doesn't look like the Augustus statue, as Anthony points out. The reconstructed pteryges look puffy unlike the statue's. But I have seen other examples that look like linen.

Notice that this example has raised edges on both sides :



To me this seems like linen.

~Theo

[M. Demetrius]

I've also heard some people suggest that they could have been made from leather covered linen, with different sorts of fringe.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Or linen covered leather?

[M. Demetrius]

Grr. Yeah, that's what I meant. I wonder, though, if it wouldn't be just as easy to use layers of linen, and turn the last layer over the edges. Seems reasonable.

Leather would work just fine, too, but the fringe would be unlike what we generally see on statues, unless it were cloth fringe sewed between layers.

Leather and linen don't behave the same way when they're wet.

[Tarbicus]

I think most fringes are very straightforward, and there's a lot of distraction with the twisted over type.

This, for instance:


Just plain old 'bullion' fringe that you can buy these days for curtains and soft furnishings:

[M. Demetrius]

Right, Jim,
What I was saying was that leather fringe would not match.

I wonder how the ancients made the fringes. When my wife could spin, she made yarn by allowing it to twist back on itself, so maybe it was no more complicated than choosing the right kind of fiber, spinning, and self twisting it, keeping the bent ends at the bottom of the fringe.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I was thinking of using that myself, Jim, but as most seems to be synthetic, I decided against it! :?

[Doc]

Hello all,

I have been on vacation and just read the posts on Saturday evening. Thanks for all the replies and encouragments.

Theodosius the Great mentioned that the pteryges do not look like the Prima Porta statue and that they appear puffy.

Well firstly, Prima Porta was not being copied for if it were, they would be quite similar. Secondly you could not have 1/4 inch thick pteryges with the number of layers that Prima Porta shows because the weight would be as much as the body armor itself. I know this because my friend's weighed his at around 13lbs.

Secondly, if you look at many of the other statues in tclarks' site, you will notice that some had a raised edge that will make the "puffy" look.

Thirdly, they look puffy because they are thick and made of overlaying cloth with a final layer enveloping the entire pteygion. You do not get the impression of the puffy look from a statue since it is difficult to make a puffy strip of cloth out of stone.

If you look at other statues you will notice that some are very linear like prima porta while others have a rounded appearence. The rounded one is what my friend was after and to get that effect the material will slighly puff up.

Paolo

[Robert]

All the statues are of officers wearing a curas, the linothorax with its fringed pteruges evident. A subarmalis IMHO would be worn under mail or seg armor. I feel there is a difference between a linothorax (associated with a curas) and a subarmalis, which may well have been made of leather. :? After all, the mail won't keep the damp out, but the leather will. A curas is much more enclosing, so a linen lining would be just the thing. The pteruges of a subarmalis could/would therefore be of a different material then those of a linothorax, and would have a different appearance. I know this has been hotly debated before, but I still feel we are talking about two different things, this causing quite some confusion.